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Post by bradshaw on Feb 12, 2020 7:53:42 GMT -5
<snip> Other than having the ballistic coefficient of a barn door, all bullet which base their impact appetite on the WADCUTTER suffer limited rate. Range limited not just by wind resistance. No, useful range is mainly limited by DYNAMIC BALANCE----the ability to sustain stabile flight. A Fowler recently pointed out, a Long Flat Nose flies straight farther than a Wide Flat Nose. Although the WFN registers more impact up close, if you’re going to shoot long with it, better make sure your bullet has the wings. To hollow point a bullet moves COG rearward, improving long range balance. Hence, accuracy. And a hollow point of pure lead expands in meat well below the speed of sound. <prune> David Bradshaw Thanks so much for this. I've often wondered if the WFN shouldn't more aptly be referred to as the WWSTN (Wadcutter With a Slightly Tapered Nose). Are there any practical differences in a SWC and a LFN, ballistically and terminally? Cholla ***** Cholla.... Not so fast. Ogive on Wide Flat Nose keeps penetration on track. A full wadcutter is much more apt to veer in meat. The skid is on the moment a bullet tips. Like a hernia, a destabilized bullet doesn’t repair itself. It gets worse. I would describe a bullet which possesses straight line penetration in meat as having good MEAT BALLISTICS. To complete a train of jargon: 1) Interior ballistics----under combustion, inside firearm. 2) Exterior ballistics----projectile behavior in flight. 3) Meat ballistics----projectile behavior in target. A bullet ricocheting inside a body inclines to do great harm. Alternatively, a ricochet or veer may prove less lethal. In general we want a bullet to fly straight, to name our own path for the projectile to take. Such as a quartering shot aimed in our mind at the far shoulder, passing through vitals. If the bullet veers and performs none of this work, our shot fails. The Wide Flat Nose has meat ballistics superior to the Wadcutter, more predictable, deeper. Thus, the two are different bullets. You would never find a WFN on the Firing Line in handgun silhouette. If I had to shoot steel with either Wide Flat Nose or Long Flat Nose, I take the LFN hands down. Yet, the LFN would have its hands full against a good Semi Wad Cutter. David Bradshaw
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Post by Cholla on Feb 12, 2020 8:24:09 GMT -5
Sorry, my remarks regarding the WFN bullets were in jest; that is to my eye they've always possessed the physical appearance of double-ended wadcutters with one end that is slightly tapered.
The serious part of my post was LFN vs. SWC. With identical diameter meplat, seems to me their terminal performances would be all but identical. I can however see a possible advantage to the LFN where entering a forcing cone more gently would be apparent.
Cholla
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Post by bradshaw on Feb 12, 2020 9:24:15 GMT -5
Sorry, my remarks regarding the WFN bullets were in jest; that is to my eye they've always possessed the physical appearance of double-ended wadcutters with one end that is slightly tapered. The serious part of my post was LFN vs. SWC. With identical diameter meplat, seems to me their terminal performances would be all but identical. I can however see a possible advantage to the LFN where entering a forcing cone more gently would be apparent. Cholla ***** Cholla.... LFN enters forcing cone more gently than SWC? You may be right. You’re a serious shooter, so the place to prove or disprove theory is on the target. However, you may have to start at the 200 yard line, as you may see no difference the length of a football field. I suspect it comes down to DYNAMIC BALANCE, with more separation between COG and COF in the SWC. A fine revolver cannot make a poorly balanced bullet fly straight. Nor can a fine bullet fly straight from a lousy revolver. Takes two to tango at long range. David Bradshaw
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Post by sixshot on Feb 12, 2020 12:36:13 GMT -5
Maybe even three, an experienced shooter behind the sights!
Dick
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nicholst55
.375 Atomic
Retired, twice.
Posts: 1,120
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Post by nicholst55 on Feb 12, 2020 22:57:55 GMT -5
I was watching a video from Lucky Gunner.com the other day on handgun bullet performance. They interviewed some guys at Federal/ATK, one the handgun ammo guru for Federal/Speer. My takeaway from the conversation is that the engineers can essentially make handgun bullets to meet whatever performance parameters the customer specifies - within reason, of course. Want a JHP that will expand when fired out of a short barrel or at (relatively) low velocity? They can do it (reasonably well). www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=T6kUvi72s0Y&fbclid=IwAR2koYIWEIGsWnv9wnmP9k9VmXy1EKAMwLUMF2stfNwBilcKBAhKusscXIk
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Post by bradshaw on Feb 13, 2020 7:44:18 GMT -5
Afternoon all. I am looking to load some light tissue opening hollow points that are not prone to fragmenting for the 38 Special in the +P range. I was wondering about the Hornady 140 grain hollow point Hornady # 35740. All I have found is "meant to open in a wide range of velocities". OK, does that mean it will open at 850 fps.... 950 fps..., what? I don't want to go hog hunting with a 38 special to have to find out. Although as an afterthought, I could trap some and shoot them with the 38. Seems a little rough ethically, but so would be getting killed cause I didn't test my ammo. I do cast some 358429 Keith hollow points but even their use on skunks tell me they shred badly (and no, I am not going digging for a bullet after that). If this bullet would not be the best choice, what would? All advice welcome. By the way, weapon is a Smith and Wesson police turn in 2 inch model "Lady Smith", similar to the Colt Undercover. ***** Trey.... as you well know, it takes less to shoot a hog in a trap than to nail a hog on the loose. Having ricocheted a .357 Mag 158 JHP off the forehead of big domestic pig----the bullet stuck in a hewn barn beam overhead----only to reholster and finish the job via straight-in jab with WW II Marbles MK II Navy knife to the jugular before the pi recovered from the stun, to my estimation the ear hole is about the only way in for a puny bullet. Even in the confine of a cage trap, a pig may be disinclined to hold still, taking any sort of head shot off the menu. Adrenalin changes everything. An animal that knows you’re there is a tougher customer than one shot unaware. If we select handgun ammo on how little we can get away with we are certain to wound animals. David Bradshaw
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Post by boolitdesigner on Feb 13, 2020 8:40:48 GMT -5
I am looking to load some light tissue opening hollow points that are not prone to fragmenting for the 38 Special in the +P range. Why? If the hollow point opens and doesn't fragment, it looks like an umbrella and doesn't penetrate too far, especially in a minimal cartridge. It it does fragment, it sends off secondary fragments indreasing shock and damage to the animal. The base will drive on and penetrate thru the animal. The fragmented bullet kills a lot better than a classic umbrella HP does. BTDT......................
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Post by x101airborne on Feb 13, 2020 9:07:42 GMT -5
Afternoon all. I am looking to load some light tissue opening hollow points that are not prone to fragmenting for the 38 Special in the +P range. I was wondering about the Hornady 140 grain hollow point Hornady # 35740. All I have found is "meant to open in a wide range of velocities". OK, does that mean it will open at 850 fps.... 950 fps..., what? I don't want to go hog hunting with a 38 special to have to find out. Although as an afterthought, I could trap some and shoot them with the 38. Seems a little rough ethically, but so would be getting killed cause I didn't test my ammo. I do cast some 358429 Keith hollow points but even their use on skunks tell me they shred badly (and no, I am not going digging for a bullet after that). If this bullet would not be the best choice, what would? All advice welcome. By the way, weapon is a Smith and Wesson police turn in 2 inch model "Lady Smith", similar to the Colt Undercover. ***** Trey.... as you well know, it takes less to shoot a hog in a trap than to nail a hog on the loose. Having ricocheted a .357 Mag 158 JHP off the forehead of big domestic pig----the bullet stuck in a hewn barn beam overhead----only to reholster and finish the job via straight-in jab with WW II Marbles MK II Navy knife to the jugular before the pi recovered from the stun, to my estimation the ear hole is about the only way in for a puny bullet. Even in the confine of a cage trap, a pig may be disinclined to hold still, taking any sort of head shot off the menu. Adrenalin changes everything. An animal that knows you’re there is a tougher customer than one shot unaware. If we select handgun ammo on how little we can get away with we are certain to wound animals. David Bradshaw Perhaps I could clarify a little here. I was asking more specifically about bullet performance from short barrel handguns that I carry all the time. The 38 on my hip is better than my 500 Smith in the safe. Most manufacturers do not give specific figures as to what velocities their bullets will expand at all, expand and penetrate as they are expected to or shred to tiny pieces and only give superficial (yet terribly painful and unethical) wounds. I am not at all expecting to "hunt" hogs with a 38 special, especially not the uncommon 300 pound animals we sometimes encounter here. Yet if I am working fence and one shows up, guess what it is getting shot with....
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