Ruger Single Seven Bisley in 327 fed mag back to mothership

[oddshooter]

I took her out to the backcountry to dance first day after I got her at SAR show in Phoenix.  Dropped a single 327fm cartridge into the cylinder and fired away. 

Tried to eject that case without success.  Tried and tried again.  My mind goes racing off to the moon without a roundtrip ticket; first round, new gun.
What could be wrong?  It wasn't an overly hot load.  Not much recoil and not that loud of a crack.  Velocity measured 1131fps on my chrono.  That should be nothing for the 327fm.  The brass must be stretched from one firing.  The round had just dropped into the cylinder; zero pushing.

I tried every trick I knew to get the stuck case out.  I tried vibrating it out by tapping gently on the button.  I tried soaking with Kroll penetrating oil to no avail.

I took her home and used a range rod.  She finally let go and I got the case out.  The case wasn't really dirty and the primer looked fine.  Looking over the case I noticed concentric circles all around the outside of the case.  Weird !  I have seen lots of scratch marks running the length of the case from in or out issues.  I had not seen the circles.  That had to be the cylinder.

I look over the inside of the cylinders and immediately see chatter marks on 6 of the 7 cylinder walls.  They looked to be exactly like the marks on the side of the brass case.  I decided that one shot was not sufficient to call Ruger.  I took her to an indoor range and on the first shot, she locked that case tight.  I wondered how Ruger had ever extracted their test round?

I had also noticed that when cocking about half way back, the energy required to pull the hammer quadrupled at a single point.  It was like hitting a wall. 
I had also noticed in those first two shots that it was striking POA a foot high, with the rear sight screwed all the way down.

You could see daylight through the grips and frame.

I called Ruger CS, being as sweet as apple pie and they said send him home.  CS told me Friday that the cylinder had been replaced, it wasn't possible to ream without making cylinder chambers too large.  They were already .314".  The bore I had slugged at .309".
They also said the barrel had been replaced.  Nothing on the hammer pull weight stacking or the see through grip frame, or the poor fit of the grips.  I tried getting our own Two Dogs to work on her, but he thought they would require too much as well.   I've used Ruger Customer Support for a few decades with good and bad results.


I had sworn I would never buy another NEW Ruger or trust CS again.  I had 3 such horrible experiences with my NEW SP101 trigger and customer support damage, I had vowed to not make those mistakes again.  After a few years, I forgot my vow, and bought my brand NEW Ruger 327.  I have a vault full of old Rugers that are some of my favorites; along with Colt, Smith & Wesson, Dan Wesson, United Sporting Arms, Brownings, and USFA.   I shot a few pics before I sent it off to CS, so I could document any new damage from CS.

I don't buy junk.  I don't like cheap.  Compared to my other Rugers, the S7 feels like a cheap toy, and broken at that.  After spending hundreds of dollars trying to get my SP101 to work consistently, I lost my confidence in that gun's geometry and the current Ruger management;  although, I'm still a fan boy of Bill and Bill Jr.  I really dislike thinking I'm going down that road again with the S7.  I know from multiple personal experiences that Ruger Customer Support always "making it right" is smoldering Bull Poop stacked high and deep.   I'm real tired of reading that from the Ruger fan boys who also think requiring work on a NEW Ruger trigger is just fine.   

I  believe it's up to new Ruger owners to Make Ruger Great Again; (and that's a Trump joke)
by opening their windows and screaming: "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore".  from the movie "Network"


and like the MCP (Master Controller Program) from the movie "Tron" said signing off with a deep bass voice: 
                   END OF LINE.

END OF RANT.


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I really dislike whiners and haters.  I promise I'll be more positive, hopeful, and optimistic in the future.

[ss30378]

My single seven was the same way, timing was off on one chamber, blowback from factory loads, and another chamber was especially hard to eject. Sent it in, came back with a new cylinder and barrel. Shot much better and velocities were 50fps higher than the original pieces. I decided I liked the package overall and wanted to make it my own so I swapped it to a bisley setup then sent if off to reeder for a 5 shot free wheeling cylinder. So now my single 5 shoots 1" groups pretty easily at 25yds and even stoking 100g xtp's to well over 1700fps cases pop right out without a hint of sticking.

[wheelguns]

My first s7 was a disaster, but not as bad as yours. It was a stainless model with 4 5/8” barrel. A cartridge wouldn’t even load without force because the loading slot wasn’t deep enough. It some kind of hitch when spinning the cylinder, and the grips were very undersized. I almost forgot, the barrel was clocked so bad that it was easily noticeable. When it came back, they fixed everything except the grips. Then I got one of the s7 bisleys, and haven’t had any issues with it.

[oddshooter]

from the OP:

You guys are a real treat !
I came back to singleactions to delete my post. Instead, I found your posts commiserating; but being hopeful, optimistic. No poison.
It brought a grin to my mug immediately. I needed this community's comments badly. I agree; the platform should be perfect for that caliber.

I've heard "misery loves company" and always thought it a strange cliche. Now, I get it. I'm not crazy. Problems happen. It'll be OK 

Still, life's too short to let yourself go to the dark side. I'm really sorry about the Ruger rant.  I love em too much to see them fail.

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[wheelguns]

You might get a kick out of this story. I bought a gp100 several years ago. After thousands of full bore magnums, I was cleaning it one day, and noticed the forcing cone was cracked. A call to ruger set the process in motion. When I got it back, they had replaced the barrel, and refinished the whole revolver. It looked brand new. The only problem was the barrel was clocked so far off that the sights wouldn’t adjust enough to put it on target. So another call, and they got it right the second time.

[ddixie884]

They do seem to try. I guess it is cheaper to fix the small percentage of bad ones than do a real QC. As long as they fix the bad ones I guess we still win............

[oddshooter]

With nice folks around me like Wheelguns and DDixie, I should be able to stay out of trouble. Somehow, I find a way.

If everybody is happy in the end; sounds like a win to me. Hopeful and optimistic.

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[contender]

I'm a "fan boy" type,,, but mostly over my OM's. But I also understand business,, and the current atmosphere.
The company is no longer a "Ruger family owned" entity. As such,, it is a corporation, and it has stockholders. They expect a return on their investment. So, bean counters get hired.
Now,, we used to have a big problem back when Bill was still in charge. Introduce a new gun,, and MAYBE see one 1-3 years later. SLOW production compared to DEMAND. Well, the newer management figured out they needed to ramp up production to get more guns to the market. An excellent idea. BUT,, the flaw was in a few details. First,, the need for bigger & more facilities to meet the demands. They have been working on that.
But the bigger problem was SKILLED labor at a PRICE they could afford,, that could ALSO meet the demand.

Enter modern manufacturing methods, combined with hourly employees, who are NOT always firearm types. They are machine operators,, and parts assemblers. Along with that,, the truly skilled gun builders are not affordable employees when compared to hourly machine operators.

GENERALLY,, the workers do a pretty good job,, for the most part,,, in meeting production schedules & getting most guns built & usable for the general public. BUT, flaws & issues do get by many of these folks,, and are built & shipped.

Enter the Service Dept. This is where they can afford to have SKILLED gunsmiths to fix whatever issues that arise. Sad but true in the modern world of mass manufacturing to meet demands by consumers, and stockholders.

My S7 has been fine. And I have had several new firearms from them that worked as promised w/o flaws. But I also see the occasional issue that should not have gotten built or shipped by these types of posts.

The OP had a very legitimate issue,, and it should be fixed w/o trouble. But sadly,, in todays world,, finding skilled labor,, at an affordable wage,, combined with the ability to pass a background check & drug test all the time is HARD for ALL firearm companies. Ruger, S&W, Glock, Kimber, Sig, Remington, Beretta, etc ALL suffer from the same issues.

We here just prefer the SA type of firearm,, and as such,, they can be a bit harder to "fix" than many of the shell shuckers!

So,, I do hope that oddshooter understands I'm NOT bashing him,, nor defending Ruger blindly. It's just how business is done in todays world.

[bradshaw]

Prescut..... your recent experience forces me think....

It is time to implement a way of rating NEW handguns; in a fashion parallel to the OLD NRA firearms rating criteria. The old NRA rating graded a new gun as unfired since leaving factory, as shipped. Used guns included mint or near mint.
"Very Good” was somewhere down the scale, with perfect bore , no rust, 95% finish, etc. “Very Good” was so close to “New” no shooter would notice a difference; one a collector would quibble.

How to hash out criteria to rate guns made today? To start, I would base MINT on old model Rugers and pre-Bangor Punta Smith & Wessons. For auto pistols I would classify the 1911 with MINT equal to a classic Les Baer , combining superior reliability with superior accuracy, no compromise. Other autos would base MINT on flawless SIG/Sauers and vintage Glocks.

For a revolver to be VERY GOOD, bore has no tight or loose spots, action cycles without glitch, chamber runout of .006-inch or less, forcing cone as I’ve described numerous times, proper carry-up SA and DA. Minimal endshake. Cylinder gap factored to cartridge. S&W used a .006” feeler gauge to pass service revolvers, as not less than .006”. I would alter gap to cartridge and gun; obviously, a .006” gap on a .454 Casull is outrageous. Smooth extraction of all chambers, including simultaneous extraction where provided.

Since shooting matters, reliability and accuracy should gauge. Any malfunction of any kind must be noted. Accuracy is harder to assess, and some guns must display more than others. A service auto should group 4 or 5” @ 50 yards. A hunting revolver should group 4” @ 100 yards. A silhouette revolver should group 6” @ 200 meters (219 yards). There is an arbitrary element to all this, but it might help the shooter know what he or she is buying, and help a manufacturer see beneath its advertising. Shouldn’t be that difficult to equal standards held before CNC.

A few criteria by which we could evaluate a NEW revolver.
David Bradshaw

[ss30378]

[oddshooter]

Contender,

I never thought for one second that your were doing any bashing, or fan boy routines. I enjoyed your post from first to last line.

Your description of the manufacturing process and labor was beautiful. I would even use the word systemic for your issues description. Systemic meaning that's the nature of the beast, the manufacturing system. Modern manufacturing has moved skilled labor to service department because they had to. Everyone is in the same boat. Makes tons of sense.

I've read enough of your posts to become a fan of yours. No worries. You seem like too smart a cookie to give out blind allegiance to anybody.

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[ddixie884]

Someone wrote on a forum that; Ruger made a really good revolver kit for custom gunsmiths to mold into a fine revolver; Or something to that effect. I guess that is right. On the other hand they do manufacture a pretty good SA for one half of a weeks wages. In the 1880s a Colt SAA was about a months wages. I have bought a couple of pretty nice customs for a good bit less than a months wages. Of course inflation does keep up.

[oddshooter]

David,

Another beautiful post. Your question of whether we should find a new way of evaluating NEW guns, is intriguing.

I find myself taking your lead and trying to make a standard Evaluation Form. We need something to give us consistency in order to make valid comparisons at the end.

You got us started by listing several criteria:
Bore, action, chamber runout of .006-inch or less, forcing cone, proper carry-up SA and DA, minimal endshake, cylinder gap factored to cartridge, accuracy. More to follow, I'm sure. I may need some experts on this.

Each of those will need a validation list for selecting acceptable values for each criteria.
I think we will also need to rank each criteria. Some issues are more important than others.

I may just give this a shot to follow the thread to a conclusion.


I wish I knew how to capture the problems of reporting. Complaints seem to get more postings than compliments. Yes, I know, I'm guilty.
Single complaints don't hold much weight. Trends are harder to spot without lots of records/reviews.


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[contender]

oddshooter,,, MANY thanks for the kind words AND the understanding of my post.

I put that out,, as I have had the good fortune to have spent time with the folks at Ruger,, in one of their plants,, watching the process of making firearms. But beyond that,, the discussions with management,, as well as actually studying the workers at the plant,, puts a lot into perspective. I've been a Sturm, Ruger fan since the early 1970's. I own my fair share & then some. And I can recall the LONG wait for a new gun to actually show up locally,,, AND how the demand was always higher than the supply. Fast forward to the current manufacturing methods & economy in general,, where the object is to make MONEY,, while the path to that is the firearms we all enjoy,, you have to understand how a business is run.
I walked the manufacturing line of the LCP from start to finish. At each station,,, the parts assembled were tested according to the gauges for that part & all. If it passed,, it kept going. All until it reached the end,, where it was placed in a test fire machine,, and fired twice. It comes out of that machine,, and is boxed & placed ready to ship. It's amazing to see,, and proves that thousands of guns are built,, shipped & used w/o issues. BUT,, I could also see how a gun may pass a point,, continue to get built,, and get shipped,, all while having an issue. And that issue,, may not be visible to an assembler 2-3 or more stations away from where the problem part was installed.
As I said,, they have to hire people who can pass background checks AND drug tests. Many of those people are not true "gun people." Throw in employee turnovers,, new vs. well trained, and occasional issues arise,,, no matter what is being built by whatever company is out there. (Just look at our cars!)
BUT,, I also met many employees who were very knowledgeable & dedicated to their craft. You can see & feel the pride they have in their work. And you can know they are working hard at only turning out the best they can.

[oddshooter]

Hey Contender,

Bud, you have a unique perspective from your visit to the mothership. I wound up yesterday discussing your post about manufacturing with my lady. She was especially intrigued by the comments on moving the skilled folks to Customer Service.

A Ruger plant is only a couple of miles away from our place here in Prescott, AZ since 1980. I've known more than a few folks from the plant;
so I already owe allegiance to my home town folks. I have "encouraged" them on occasion to keep Ruger alive by building quality products. They told me everyone tried to do the right thing, but on occasion the business end would take over. What I usually heard from them was "go practice".

What I very much felt was the respect most had for Bill Ruger.

Unfortunately, I don't think they make any single actions here in town. I would love that.
I'll post when I my S7 comes home to papa and I get a chance to take her dancing.

My .32 affliction time has seriously cut into my 357 Maximum addiction. But staying busy with hawglegs, is about as sweet as life gets.

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