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Post by bradshaw on Jul 8, 2019 10:24:35 GMT -5
“I've never achieved great accuracy with the one I own...” ----squigz
*****
Before you give up, and since you like the Mannlicher, bed walnut-to-muzzle with epoxy. Any looseness of muzzle cap to stock, bed it, too. I use Marine Tex, but other epoxy bedding works. David Bradshaw
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Post by squigz on Jul 8, 2019 10:30:54 GMT -5
“I've never achieved great accuracy with the one I own...” ----squigz ***** Before you give up, and since you like the Mannlicher, bed walnut-to-muzzle with epoxy. Any looseness of muzzle cap to stock, bed it, too. I use Marine Tex, but other epoxy bedding works. David Bradshaw Thanks David, I'll have to give it a shot. I never really went down that route since it's always been a deer rifle and has exhibited anywhere from 1-1.75" groups at 100 yards. My other rifles will stay well under the 1" mark as long as the Indian slinging the arrow does it's job. But I've never had this one(RSI) stay there consistently enough, which regardless doesn't matter because it is more than accurate for the situations I'm in. Realistically never hunting beyond a 100 yard area, unless in the farmers field, which maybe 150-200 would be maximum due to the rolling hills.
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Post by bradshaw on Jul 8, 2019 11:21:00 GMT -5
Arrive, early evening, cocktail hour at Bill Ruger’s in Croydon, New Hampshire. Carrying Ruger M77 International Mannlicher carbine, 18-1/2-inch .308 and IHMSA pig painted on cardboard. Three shots into 3-inches, the chest, @ 200 yards, prone in the grass over an ammo can, Federal 150 Spitzer.
Ruger looks at the target. “I suppose you’re going to tell me the carbine isn’t accurate!"
Au contraire. I call that accurate.
“Damn right,” says Bill.
The ones I shot were little screamers, and I lived with the M77 International in.308 and .243. Excellent barrels, excellent chambering. And absolutely essential to sight for a particular load, and to not deviate components----or powder charge. And the M77 tang safety is a favorite. David Bradshaw
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Post by z1r on Jul 8, 2019 11:48:51 GMT -5
David,
I've never been a huge fan of the Model 77 but I have to agree that the International models have always caught my eye. And I do like the Tang Safety models as well.
If a 7mm-08 International presented itself to me, I'd snatch it up in a heart beat!
And just so everyone knows, my favorite varmint rifle is a SS 77 in a boat paddle stock chambered in .223. It will shoot that cheap Winchester white box bulk ammo into 5/8" groups @ 100 yds all day long. And I'm not even a good shot!
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Post by olskool on Jul 9, 2019 6:58:20 GMT -5
here is mine. I think a full stock is really something people really hate or really love. I love them! a couple on here or Husqvarna the ones on the log. one is a 30-06 from 1959, the tiger stripe one is 7mm mauser from 1958 there are a couple of rugers on the log, tang safety's from 1984-85, one is 243 the other is 250 sav. the one on the wheel is a rare H&R ultra rifle model 301 in 243 they all shoot very good. the only one I haven't killed a deer with yet is the 7mm,,,,,,,,,,, ***** olskool.... this is a good thread and anyone been around Mausers knows you present some fine examples. HusqvarnaThe Husqvarna variant of Peter Paul Mauser’s masterpiece strikes a particularly high note. While a small receiver ring 1898, steel and heat treatment are to my reckoning an epiphany of metallurgical correctness for this design. The bolt borrows Winchester’s Model 70 ejector cut under the left locking lug,----instead of through it----for added strength, closing @ 12 o’clock, where the receiver ring is strongest. Husqvarna barrels I’ve had measured 1;12 twist in .30-06 and 7x57mm Mauser. Very fine accuracy nevertheless, sharper than Browning’s 98’s made by Fabrique Nationale. (I use flat base bullets for slow twists. For the Husqvarna 7x57 with 1:12, 20-1/2-inch barrel, the unassuming Hornady 139 Spire Point, seated over (memory says 50.4 grains) IMR 4350, a deer slayer supreme, woodchuck accuracy with barely any recoil. Proportions of the Husqvarna pistol grip are the best ever put on a bolt action rifle----with the carbine, you can one-hand the carbine all day. At the flick in your eye it snaps like lightning. Fabrique NationaleHarrington & Richardson marketed the Supreme on the FN commercial 98 with one of the best BOX TRIGGERS of all time----all milled and made by SAKO. Never learned who made the stock, I think Stile in Italy, although it may have been Fajen..... who knows? Again, brilliant proportions for a jump gun. Unfortunately, leastwise in my experience, H&R picked cigarette butts out of the gutter in selecting a barrel. Same modus operandi followed by Sears, Western Field, Colt and others which screwed a jack handle to the FN receiver. Is it any wonder FN wouldn’t countenance another name on their receiver? Sturm, Ruger Model 77 InternationalI shot a prototype M77 International .308 Winchester in Bill Ruger’s back yard. Old Bill’s mustache tweaks as he hefts his lightweight Mannlicher carbine. Bill’s rheumatoid arthritis curtailed cherished fine motor skill in his hands and it was easier to shift gears in his 1929 Bentley tourer, one of his Rugermobiles, or a Ferrari, than to stroke a bolt action or ear back the hammer on a .357 Maximum. Nevertheless, the M77 International represents Bill’s respect for fair chase----traipsing through woods armed with short little Mannlicher carbine to approach hooved game and place a decisive shot. Bill Ruger loved the Mannlicher-Schoenauer spool magazine, and the Savage M99 spool magazine. Shortly, I received a pair of the first M77 Internationals, one .308, the other .243 Winchester. 18-1/2” barrels, very thin, both 1:10 twist. Sighted both with the elegant Ruger irons, then slapped Leupolds on ‘em. Both shot great, the .243 5x5 under 2” @ 165 yards, the .308 5x5 to 2.5”. Bill Ruger, Jr., paid a visit to Vermont, where we shot the Internationals out the window of a friend’s house, and on a hunt with Bill, Jr., he carried a M77 International 18-1/2” in .30-06. POI and MannlicherIf there ever was a meter to detect a difference in VIBRATION NODE between components, it is a Mannlicher stock with muzzle cap. Once sighted, any change in load shifts Point of Impact. and actual load development becomes more sensitive with Mannlicher cap. My experience with Mannlicher-Schoenauer is limited to shooting, not tinkering; these old carbines so carefully assembled with air-aged, slow-growth walnut, may prove the exception. Bedded capI epoxy-bedded the Ruger caps to muzzle and wood, which hauled bullets in tight. Yet, sensitivity to load remains. You don’t run out of ammo on a hunt, to replace it at the store without sighting-in. No deer deserves that wreckage. The M77 International Mannlicher Carbine barrel is THIN. Which nearly inspired me to glass bed & free float it in a regular stock, just to compare with the Mannlicher. Didn’t do it. Were I to gamble, I’d bet on a pencil barrel in the Mannlicher----with BEDDED MUZZLE CAP. The Mannlicher lives by its own rule. Thanks for a good piece, David Bradshaw
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Post by olskool on Jul 9, 2019 7:28:45 GMT -5
this is for "David Bradshaw" I tried to comment on his post but can't for some reason. David I thank you for your knowledge and comments and information on these great rifles. it is interesting that you mention flat based bullets in your comment about the 7mm 25 years ago I had a H&R ultra in 308, it was a tack driver with flat based bullets but would not shoot a boat tail bullet at all! I really love the husky's. but the rugers are a dream to hunt with. the H&R rifles had a Fagin aristocrat stock that was hand checkered by two women that worked at H&R they also had a Douglas premium barrel. here is a photo of my ruger 250 in action last deer season.
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Post by bradshaw on Jul 9, 2019 10:40:26 GMT -5
“.... H&R rifles had a Fajen aristocrat stock that was hand checkered by two women that worked at Harrington & Richardson. They also had a Douglas premium barrel.” ----oldskool
*****
I bought a Harrington & Richardson----(Ultra Model 300?) in 7mm Rem Mag on the commercial FN 98 Mauser action with SAKO trigger----for $200. Beautifully polished and blued. Sharp, moderately coarse, exceptionally practical checkering on fine walnut of great proportions for offhand marksmanship. Flared rosewood grip cap which I found an asset to slippery conditions, while no hinderance to speed, even in winter. i mounted it first with a Leupold 1-4x, then Leupold 1.5-5x Vari-X III, followed by Leupold 1.75-6x32mm, all of ‘em tough, fast woods scopes. Epoxy pillar bed, full float. I consistently outshot the rifle (considered it something of a carbine----thin 22” barrel). Have a hard time believing the original barrel is a Douglas. Seemed to me at the time, every American company making rifles on the FN action installed the cheapest piece of rifled pipe they could find, with some fashioning stocks from recycled railroad ties. Whatever the barrel it outshot other American rifles I tried, which were built on the FN Mauser, including examples from Sears Roebuck, Western Field, Colt, and whatever names I’ve forgotten.
Taking a break from an IHMSA practice session with silhouette Dave Archambeau, I hauled out the H&R Mauser 7 Mag for an offhand shot at the swinger ram, 200 meters downrange. Inbreathe, out breathe, and squeeze.... a Nosler 150 grain Partition at 3,000 fps center punches the borrego, depositing a healthy crater in the heat treated 3/8-inch T-1 steel. That’s a great bullet for deer from that rifle, although I switched to the Nosler 175 Partition for elk.
The rifle wears barrel number three, installed by Doug Shilen, a stainless #2 contour with 1:9 twist, crowned at 23-inches. Short for a 7 Mag, yes, but fast in the woods. Doug Shilen explained a secret of poor accuracy from a good barrel----an abrupt or rough LEADE (transition between CHAMBER and RIFLING), kills accuracy. Doug and his father Ed Shilen were benchresters from way back, applying their lessons to barrel making.
A old Fajen catalog shows the stock, which you say H&R fit to the Ultra, with checkering by two women. I met a woman at the funeral/memorial service for Bill Ruger, Jr., in Croydon, New Hampshire, who spent her career checkering stocks at the Newport factory. Another woman who started out checkering, Brenda Walsh, later became secretary to President Bill Ruger, Jr. In 2003, as I was presented the Ruger 03, it was Brenda Walsh who said, “David, how does it feel to have a factory, one-of-a-kind Ruger?”
Good checkering must symbolize having a grip on things. David Bradshaw
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Post by olskool on Jul 9, 2019 11:29:15 GMT -5
yes sir, a model 300 is correct. here is my model 300 in 22-250 with a period Leupold 3x9 this thing shoots as good as I can hold it. the model 300 I had 25 years ago was a 308 with a sako action, the early ones had the FN action. the model 301 full stock in the previous photos has a parker hale trigger. they sure are a sleeper,,,,,,,,,,,
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Post by cas on Jul 9, 2019 19:13:11 GMT -5
My 243 No.1 RSI is unusual in that the fore stock is full length bedded. I wasn't real thrilled with the accuracy (though it was more than good enough to hunt with). I'd just had some great success full length bedding two other rifles, so I said what the heck, I have nothing to lose. I steel bedded it stem to stern. The groups shrunk a bit, a noticeable improvement. It wasn't till I'd owned the rifle about 20+ years that I realized the biggest issue was th3 3x9 Bushnell scope I had on it. When I put that 1.5 x 4 on it years later, the groups were cut in half! All those years thinking it was the gun and it was the scope! I never did bother putting a larger scope on it just see how it would group, but it makes me wonder.
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Post by bradshaw on Jul 9, 2019 20:37:07 GMT -5
oldskool.... Harrington & Richardson using SAKO actions as well as FM Mauser, and didn’t Browning use the medium SAKO for the .308 family? These early SAKO’s are strong, with their own milled “box trigger.” Some of the SAKO from the 1950’s and 60’s are just phenomenally accurate. As my L461 .222 Remington shot out, I called Garcia, the imp[orter in D.C., and asked if they’d sell me one of the new fangled .223 Rem barrels. “45 dollars,” I was quoted. Wished I’d done it but someone wanted that petit rifle so bad, I sold it. Ben “Bear Man” Kilham in Lyme, New Hampshitre built a 7mm TCU on the SAKO L461.
What’s your take on the Parker-Hale trigger? I assume it’s on the FN Mauser, as I can’t see a reason to put a non-SAKO trigger on a SAKO action. David Bradshaw
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Post by olskool on Jul 10, 2019 6:14:43 GMT -5
David the parker hale trigger seams fine to me. I have no problem with it, it adjusted good with a nice crisp break. yes it is on the full stock FN I have to get it out and hunt a little with it this year. I have so many rifles I don't know which one to take hunting next. our deer season here in SC starts Aug. 15 and goes till Jan 1 on private land. so I do give them all a turn most seasons. I hunt about 15 miles from my house so I get to go a good bit.
I can't remember seeing a full stock Husqvarna in 6.5X55 did they ever make one in that caliber? if so I sure would like to acquire one.
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Post by bradshaw on Jul 10, 2019 8:22:25 GMT -5
David the parker hale trigger seams fine to me. I have no problem with it, it adjusted good with a nice crisp break. yes it is on the full stock FN I have to get it out and hunt a little with it this year. I have so many rifles I don't know which one to take hunting next. our deer season here in SC starts Aug. 15 and goes till Jan 1 on private land. so I do give them all a turn most seasons. I hunt about 15 miles from my house so I get to go a good bit. I can't remember seeing a full stock Husqvarna in 6.5X55 did they ever make one in that caliber? if so I sure would like to acquire one. ***** oldskool.... recall seeing a photo of----I think it was----Francis E. Sell with Husqvarna chambered for 6.5mmx57mm Mauser. Don’t remember whether it was a carbine (20-1/2” bbl) or Mannlicher. I had a Husqvarna mountain carbine in European style fine grain walnut, drop at comb, the inimitable Husqvarna pistol grip, Schnabel forend. 7x57mm, 20.5” barrel. 1:12 twist, which nevertheless shot the Hornady 139 Spire Point brilliantly, good enough for wind-drift and trajectory shots on woodchucks. Mounted a Leupold 2-7x32mm Vari-X II in Buehler rings. Deer slayer by any reckoning. I was intrigued to read of a Husqvarna in 7x57mm Mauser; never handled one. My Husqvarna Mausers may be the best 98’s ever made. Metallurgy obviously of very high order. My triggers were Husqvarna’s long-pull adaptation of the the Mauser 2-stage. I would much prefer the 2-stage (TAKE-UP stage, followed by BREAK stage), with clean break stage. Nevertheless, I handle dead-smooth take-up smoothly, presently little challenge in offhand. The key to offhand marksmanship remains FOLLOW THROUGH. My familiarity with the 6.5x55mm came through Swedish Mausers, specifically Mannlicher carbines, some with barrels I think just under 16-inches. Fabulous little sticks. David Bradshaw
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Post by z1r on Jul 10, 2019 12:40:31 GMT -5
It's nice to hear that there are others that also like the two stage triggers. The majority of my Mauser hunting rifles retain the original two stage triggers. I remember building a .376 for a customer who insisted on a Timney with a 2 lb break. I cautioned him against it but he insisted. Later he sent me an email detailing his hunt and telling how his first shot went into the river 20 yards in front of the bear. A month later I received the rifle in the mail with instructions to replace the Timney with a two stage trigger. Coincidentally, both my sons' first centerfire rifles were Mausers in 6.5x55. My youngest (8 at the time) started with a Small Ring Mexican 98 and a Swedish carbine barrel. It made for a short, lightweight rifle. My older boy's rifle was built on a commercial 98 action. Both started with 100 grain bullets loaded to about 2700 fps. My youngest took NICE PA whitetail with it.
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Post by todddoyka on Jul 10, 2019 12:47:31 GMT -5
wish i owned one they are nice rifles!!!!!!
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Post by z1r on Jul 10, 2019 12:52:09 GMT -5
I should have added that now that he has outgrown the stock, we are looking at restocking that rifle in the Mannlicher style. I'm more interested in restocking than he is. He has since claimed one of my JC Higgins FN Mausers in .270.
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