Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2009 14:11:28 GMT -5
bigbore454, that's a good point,....I wonder why that is true? (I'm asking) Anyone else?  ? I'm not sure either. In theory the slow twist should shoot lighter bullets better. Can anyone explain? I did read an article on fiveshot 45 colts and it noted that slower twist gives higher velocity. But I don't get the accuracy angle. |
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Post by Markbo on Oct 29, 2009 14:38:20 GMT -5
Excellent thread idea! I love it! .... Read an article in American Hunter this month where Gary Smith tested some new .454 ammo by Winchester (I believe).... Please tell me that's not the October issue, because that's the only one I can't find!  |
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Fowler
.401 Bobcat
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Post by Fowler on Oct 29, 2009 16:15:31 GMT -5
I have found by and large heavy bullets, up a "tipping point", shoot more uniformly accurate and will always penetrate deeper than a light bullet will. My most accurate mold by and far is for the 45 colt my 335gr LFNGC, it is accurate from 850 to 1450fps. I have a 250gr WFNGC mold that only gets reasonably accurate at 1350fps or higher, below that it is well over twice the group size of the 335 bullet.
I feel the 45 caliber guns are pretty well done at 350-365gr bullets, beyond that they have to be driven very hard to get accuracy and the barrel twist starts to become a factor. I have a 360gr WLNPB mold that is a hammer and accurate to 125 yards or so, beyond that the lack twist in the barrel starts to become a factor and the bullet will begion to yaw and destablize. It is a heavy hunting/self defense bullet to me so I don't really care.
I think everything Chad said is right on the money. I will say that there is very little wrong with a good 255gr Keith, its just that when you start to take on big animals like elk, moose, and large bears I want everything a gun can give me and heavy bullets always give the gun its best foot forwards.
Some guns certainly have preferences, I have a 4 5/8" Bisley that shoots 255gr bullets increadibly but is just so so with anything heavier. 300s do OK but it hates the big bullets, can't explain it but I can prove it!
But remember velocity is a constantly reducing varible in trajectory, mass is not. Heavy bullets loose speed slower due to more mass, and that is true if you are speaking of a bullet flying through the air or plowing through flesh.
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Post by whitworth on Oct 29, 2009 16:37:03 GMT -5
There is no magic associated with heavy bullets, sorry. Anyone else? ? There most certainly is "magic" associated with heavy bullets and it is called momentum. You can take two exactly shaped bullets, with the same nose profile, diameter, and length, of differing weights, leaving the muzzle at the same velocity, and the lighter bullet will always shed speed faster (at a higher rate) than the heavier bullet. As an aside, momentum is part of the ballistic coefficient -- this has been hashed and re-hashed by the long-range rifle shooting crowd. Heavy for caliber bullets are not a recent phenomenon or fad and have been used for several decades or longer. One of the design parameters of the .475 Linebaugh was a 400 - 420 grain bullet. Heavy bullets at moderate velocities don't necessarily kick harder. Some of the sharpest kicking handgun loads I have shot have been in .454 Casull with lighter bullets at maximum speeds. Not many serious handgun hunters are advocating heavy bullets at high velocities, but rather limiting the velocity around the 1,200 fps mark (talk to John Linebaugh about this). On a side note, I had a 325 grain expanding bullet in .475 caliber, fail miserably on a small hog about 8 years ago, whereas I have never had a 420 grainer fail to exit on much bigger game. I demand reliable penetration, and the heavies deliver. |
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Post by bisleyfan41 on Oct 29, 2009 17:05:04 GMT -5
John Taffin wrote a while back in reference to the 41 mag that the Ruger SAs with a 1:20 twist would not shoot heavy-for-caliber bullets well and suspected it was the slow twist. He then asked the guys at FA when they were going to chamber their guns in 41 to use a faster twist to help stabilize the heavies. FA uses a 1:14 twist.
As far as noise goes, I find the 30 Carbine in a handgun and the 357 with just about any weight bullet at high velocity loud beyond reason. They seem to still be loud even with ear plugs and my 31 NRR muffs on top of them.
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Len
.30 Stingray
Posts: 358
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Post by Len on Oct 29, 2009 18:49:00 GMT -5
Large diameter heavy bullets stop game faster penetrate better. I have little experience killing game with handguns but a lot of field experience taking large game with rifles and the principle is the same. Not magic just mass and momentum.
Len
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Post by the priest on Oct 29, 2009 19:28:51 GMT -5
There most certainly is "magic" associated with heavy bullets and it is called momentum. You can take two exactly shaped bullets, with the same nose profile, diameter, and length, of differing weights, leaving the muzzle at the same velocity, and the lighter bullet will always shed speed faster (at a higher rate) than the heavier bullet. That's pretty much the same thing that Fowler just said and I'm not going to argue with that. (it's also a completely different issue than before when greater drag at higher velocities was mentioned) Any bullet has to react to friction/drag and the bigger the bullet is, the less effect there is on it. The reason? Most is of the affect of traveling though the air is felt at the front of the bullet and it's rear. Not in between. So the one with the greater sectional density benefits. No magic. But here is the question, again,.....why use a bullet 100 grains heavier when the lighter one will do 100% of what's needs doing? We keep getting away from that somehow. Someone else mentioned 'big bullets, big frontal area, no expansion needed',....okay,....so what's the extra weight for again?? It's not penetration because the lighter bullet is going to make a complete pass through. So where is the benefit? (unless you're trying to get rid of your lead as fast as possible) As far as big bullets in the mainstream, they're JUST getting here. Yes, the biggie bigs have been available to handloaders for a while now and a few companies, PMC, BB, etc, have offered some specialty loads for a few years,....but it's a long way from mainstream. The last thing I'll say is the two calibers mentioned above (.357 and 30 carbine) might hurt a person's ears more but it's not because they're louder. It's because of the frequency they're passing that loudness at. This is how I see it. We've got three solid reasons so far as to why the biggie bigs are beneficial. 1. Fun 2. A louder 'Clang' 3. The potential for greater accuracy. (which will vary by firearm) Some really good thoughts to this point (I think Chad wins for the most) but most of those are going to be subjective, or individual dependent, or will depend upon what you're hunting. We're just talking here!!!! ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by cas on Oct 29, 2009 19:44:56 GMT -5
To touch on my post again... my first big bore was a stainless SBH. I decided to try long-er range hunting with it, so I scoped it. At 100 yards: 210's were shooting 8-10 inch groups. 240's would make 4-6 inch groups. 300 gr JHPs would give me a six shot group, roughly the size of the cylinder. Case closed.  |
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Post by whitworth on Oct 29, 2009 20:00:54 GMT -5
Heavy for caliber bullets most certainly are mainstream to handgun hunters. Nothing new here at all.
You forgot the 4th and most important reason:
They penetrate deeper on game.
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Post by the priest on Oct 29, 2009 21:12:24 GMT -5
Whitworth my good man, you need to go back and reread a few posts. Of course they penetrate deeper. That was a given. The whole point to the previous two pages was to figure out why people use them when they don't need that EXTRA penetration. Period. And you missed again with the mainstream comment. Just because hunters use them and know about them, that makes them definitively mainstream? Um, no. If they're so mainstream, why isn't Winchester, Federal or Remington making them? |
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Post by whitworth on Oct 29, 2009 21:13:09 GMT -5
"Someone else mentioned 'big bullets, big frontal area, no expansion needed',....okay,....so what's the extra weight for again?? It's not penetration because the lighter bullet is going to make a complete pass through. So where is the benefit? (unless you're trying to get rid of your lead as fast as possible)"
You're making the assumption that the bullet is making a complete pass-through. What is your assumption based upon? Why do you think the lighter bullet will pass completely through the animal? How large an animal are we now talking about? Deer? Deer aren't particularly hard to penetrate all the way through, but bison is a different story altogether.
Is here a point of diminishing returns as far as bullet weight is concerned? I believe there is, as is the case of the commercially available 700 grain bullets for the .500 Smith, but I don't think a 420 grain bullet is too heavy for a .475 or .480, or a 360 grain bullet for a .454 Casull.
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Post by cas on Oct 29, 2009 21:20:41 GMT -5
Extree weight heps with the pushin.
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Post by whitworth on Oct 29, 2009 21:24:15 GMT -5
Whitworth my good man, you need to go back and reread a few posts. Of course they penetrate deeper. That was a given. The whole point to the previous two pages was to figure out why people use them when they don't need that EXTRA penetration. Period. And you missed again with the mainstream comment. Just because hunters use them and know about them, that makes them definitively mainstream? Um, no. If they're so mainstream, why isn't Winchester, Federal or Remington making them? Um, Federal loads 300 grain cast bullets for the.44 magnum, Hornady loads 400 grain bullets for both the .480 Ruger and the .475 Linebaugh, and 300 grain bullets for the .44 magnum, as well as a variety of weights for the .500 Smith up to 500 grains. Black Hills offes 300 grain .44 loads and Speer offers 270 grain Gold Dots.......there are plenty of mainstream offerings in heavy-for-caliber bullets. And they are offered for hunters. So what constitutes enough penetration? I don't know, but I do know that you really can't have too much. I tend to load for the worst case scenario instead of tayloring my loads to a particular game animal. It greatly simplifies matters as I never have to re-sight my firearms, and you are always prepared for the biggest and baddest game if need be. If hunting with a .500 Smith isn't what it was designed for, I'm missing the point of these big-bore revolvers entirely. There are more pleasant and cheeper ways to punch paper. JMHO. |
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Post by the priest on Oct 29, 2009 22:30:54 GMT -5
Whitworth,
Respectfully,.... You got me on the commercial loadings. I'm obviously not shopping for OTC heavies. But here's the thing: those are not the least bit important to this topic and you're missing the point entirely.
This isn't about killing buffalo, or a .500 smith. And, yes, I made an assumption of complete pass throughs based upon John Linebaugh's quote (did you miss that?) which is the foundation of most of this. Consequently, you're pulling the topic off topic. Did you go back and reread the old posts as I just suggested? Because I'm thinking you jumped in halfway and just started having the same old tired conversation that is old and used up when it comes to big cast bullets. Just like the bear threads, just like the how much is enough to shoot my neighbor and live but not get arrested or have my mom get mad at me threads. You're missing the point and in three or four posts in a two page topic,....you have failed to answer any of the original questions.
All you really keep saying is 'because they penetrate farther'. Again, everyone knows that. 99% of the people on this board will never shoot anything bigger than a whitetail deer. Why should they use a 300-335 grain .45 Colt loading? Start with that.
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Post by TEXASFIVEGUN on Oct 29, 2009 23:50:19 GMT -5
priest you are missing the point. As I have posted and several shooters agreed with me.
Heavy for caliber bullets shoot better.
Heavy for caliber bullets are easier to get to shoot well.
Heavy for caliber bullets have less felt recoil for the same power.
Heavy for caliber bullets will lead less than a faster light bullet in guns that have a leading problem.
Heavy for caliber bullets do penetrate better if you need them to and hurt nothing if the extra penetration is not needed.
Heavy for caliber bullets will do all that a light bullet will do and more.
I give up nothing with heavy for caliber bullets.
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