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Post by mike454 on Jan 9, 2017 19:40:18 GMT -5
If he could reload anywhere near as quickly as he could shoot, it must have been something to see.
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Post by sixshot on Jan 9, 2017 20:09:14 GMT -5
Fermin, you are right about the power factor being 180 at that time, later it was dropped to the current 165. That's bullet weight times velocity devided by 1000, so a 165 gr. bullet at 1000 fps equaled a 165 PF. That shot a lot of guns loose. Ross also cast his own slugs except for competition, shooting a 225 gr. RN #425374 & then switching to a Hornady jacketed for actual matches. Sorry for the hi-jack but many here wouldn't know about some of this.
Dick
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Post by contender on Jan 10, 2017 9:38:09 GMT -5
I had heard Bud's name,,, but never met him. All I ever heard was good.
I also was re-reading some old (1979) American Handgunner magazines recently. Lots of good stuff on Ross.
I was thinking the USPSA power factor used to be 170, not 180. I CAN BE WRONG! (I only go back to 1998.) I'd have to dig into my old records to see what I used to load. And while the current PF is 165,,, I keep my loads in the 168 range,, just to make SURE I make major no matter where I go, or what chrono they use. Never failed chrono,,, yet,,, yet,,, yet!
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Post by bradshaw on Jan 10, 2017 15:27:29 GMT -5
Fermin and Dick.... in the context of cast & lubricated bullets, how about listing the things you look for in a lube star? And what variations of deposit indicate?
This is not a trick question. I realize the possibilities are many.
David Bradshaw
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Post by sixshot on Jan 11, 2017 15:12:25 GMT -5
David, good question & there are several answers as you well know. One is seldom mentioned & that is a person can use too much lube, true story. With the better lube formulas we have now days it isn't necessary to completely fill each & every lube groove to prevent leading & sometimes too much can be, well, too much! You want a lube star of course to make sure you are getting a "carrier" for your bullet all the way down your barrel, because lube is both a lubricant & a carrier. Soft lubes usually work best, some of the hard lubes are working pretty good as the makers are getting it figured out.
Too much lube can actually over do some of this & you end up with a gun that can actually start shooting worse as you continue to shoot. The really good lubes such as LBT which to me is the lube all others are compared to (my opinion) doesn't take a full lube groove unless you are really leaning on your load to maximum velocity. It just makes sense that a slower or more moderate load doesn't need as much lube (good lube) as a heavy, top end load. there are many other good lubes on the market & some very good homemade lubes out there that are wonderful that weren't available back in the 60's when I started rolling my own. Felix lube is an outstanding lube as is Lars Lube (Carnuba Red)
I have a neighbor who is a moderator over on "Castboolits Forum who probably has a PHD in making bullet lubes, I swear he puts it on his cereal for breakfast! He has many, many 5 gallon buckets full of different lubes & when you get talking about vescosity & heat break down, etc. it's like he's talking French, it's amazing how much this guy knows about bullet lubes. He has a different lube for every velocity & every 20 degree change in the weather & can explain why in pretty good detail if you're smart enough to keep up with him, true story.
Changing lubes can change velocity, it can change pressures, it can change accuracy & of course it can add or decrease leading. A good lube, in the right amount almost totally does away with leading if bullet fit is correct. Others with chime in, again, good question & I'm sure you already know some of the answers.
Dick
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Post by DiamondD on Jan 11, 2017 17:17:50 GMT -5
David, good question & there are several answers as you well know. One is seldom mentioned & that is a person can use too much lube, true story. With the better lube formulas we have now days it isn't necessary to completely fill each & every lube groove to prevent leading & sometimes too much can be, well, too much! You want a lube star of course to make sure you are getting a "carrier" for your bullet all the way down your barrel, because lube is both a lubricant & a carrier. Soft lubes usually work best, some of the hard lubes are working pretty good as the makers are getting it figured out. Too much lube can actually over do some of this & you end up with a gun that can actually start shooting worse as you continue to shoot. The really good lubes such as LBT which to me is the lube all others are compared to (my opinion) doesn't take a full lube groove unless you are really leaning on your load to maximum velocity. It just makes sense that a slower or more moderate load doesn't need as much lube (good lube) as a heavy, top end load. there are many other good lubes on the market & some very good homemade lubes out there that are wonderful that weren't available back in the 60's when I started rolling my own. Felix lube is an outstanding lube as is Lars Lube (Carnuba Red) I have a neighbor who is a moderator over on "Castboolits Forum who probably has a PHD in making bullet lubes, I swear he puts it on his cereal for breakfast! He has many, many 5 gallon buckets full of different lubes & when you get talking about vescosity & heat break down, etc. it's like he's talking French, it's amazing how much this guy knows about bullet lubes. He has a different lube for every velocity & every 20 degree change in the weather & can explain why in pretty good detail if you're smart enough to keep up with him, true story. Changing lubes can change velocity, it can change pressures, it can change accuracy & of course it can add or decrease leading. A good lube, in the right amount almost totally does away with leading if bullet fit is correct. Others with chime in, again, good question & I'm sure you already know some of the answers. Dick Sixshot, What would an indication of having too much lube be? And what are the drawbacks? You mentioned a gun not shooting as well but how do you (I) determine that is a factor of too much lube? Love threads like this and thanks Mr. Bradshaw for the great question. |
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Post by 2 Dogs on Jan 11, 2017 17:32:11 GMT -5
Fermin and Dick.... in the context of cast & lubricated bullets, how about listing the things you look for in a lube star? And what variations of deposit indicate? This is not a trick question. I realize the possibilities are many. David Bradshaw David, I certainly am not in any way qualified to answer your question. I can say I like to see my lube star and want it to be a bit greasy. My answer here is based on sixguns and not on any other type of firearm. I just don't have the experience. Here in S. Texas, we have 2 kinds of weather. Hot and REALLY hot. So, the really runny sticky stuff doesn't seem to work for me. Like Dick, I had a mentor who was one of the honcho's of the Cast Bullet Association and a big lead bullet bench rest shooter. Listening to him would give me a headache after awhile. If you ask me, while you ask a really good question, I am not so sure we should overthink this subject.... |
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jsh
.327 Meteor
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Post by jsh on Jan 11, 2017 17:53:17 GMT -5
Dick, as in to much lube, I have read some on lube "purging". I looked and looked for the thread at CB, but can't seem to find it. I recall there was some pretty lengthy discussion on the subject. I do remember reading the signs, but danged if I can tell anyone what the are.
The purging effect crossed my mind when all the things went haywire for three of us at 200m, the horizontal rather than vertical issues. The calibers were all different, 357FA, 41DWand 44FA. The one common we had was using the same lube for the most part,FWFL.
I think you hit the nail on the head on folks getting the lube figured out. I have not used any of Veral's lubes, but those that I know that do feel the same as you.
Here is another monkey wrench on CB, thoughts.
I was rummaging through some magazines. A comment by the author was that CB's build more pressure than jacketed because the seal the bore better.........
That was in a paragraph, with no other input or explanation, which I considered odd,but not strange as it could go way off of the original article.
I won't BS anyone. I have extrapolated some loads for CB's for various guns in various calibers. There was no data for said cartridge with said design. I have always erred on the side of caution and used slower powders thinking I was safer.
I usually started at a start load for jacketed or 10% below, depending on several things.
I have worked up several CB rifle loads with regular slow burning type powders with excellent results.
Two words that get us in trouble, "but" and "If".
Assume, should be thrown in here and make it three, as in, ass out of U and me when we assume.
So, I always assumed cast bullets were like a wet bar of soap, or a wet slimy fish, slippery. I came about this " ass sumption " by a fellow that got me in to casting.
Bottom line is, I had to step back, scratch my head some before I proceed on to other projects that I feel were safe.
That may be when we are in some danger, when we feel we are safe.
I am going to reach out to some of my old chronies that were or are in the industry to see if I can get some feed back.
Jeff
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jsh
.327 Meteor
Posts: 884
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Post by jsh on Jan 11, 2017 18:43:59 GMT -5
" Fermin-My answer here is based on sixguns and not on any other type of firearm. I just don't have the experience."
I have shot my share of lead through closed breach type guns. I have seen very little if any difference of lube stars from a wheel gun or a closed breach.
I warned you this keeps going and going........:-)
We have better lubes than say just a short ten years ago.
So,does a revolver lube need to be better in some way than a rifle,or are they about the same?
We loose some lube in a wheel gun because of some purging at the barrel cylinder gap.
Yet, on the rifle with the longer barrel and longer dwell or barrel time, leaving that minute trace, does it need to be different.
I used the same lube for rifles and pistols and revolvers no matter the caliber or speed. Life was good,until I started thinking,lol.
I have tried some of the tumble lubes in the past with so so results. I mixed up some of the alox with the floor wax lube, once again better, but not sold on it.
I have also mixed a batch of Bens Red as directed. I see where some are doing both. I will try it just for the sake of giving it all I can. The verdict for me is out as I await decent weather to give it a work out, in wheel gun calibers.
My batch I made of FWFL has been put through the paces. I have run it in 38SW loads for an old Victory, all the way through heavy 480 Rugers ,also in a proven CB 1903 Remington as issue, all through the paces from lite target to full tilt. I have run several hundred through a 300 WM Encore barrel, with various powders, up to WM speeds. This was not just 3 or 5 shots,then say success. This was a regular type range session with lots of shooting back to back.
I have come to expect no less from a CB than from a jacketed.
Not saying I get there mind you, but darn close.
I am tinkering with designs now way more than lube or alloy.
Jeff
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Post by azshaun on Jan 11, 2017 18:44:48 GMT -5
Man, talk about intimidation reading this thread. A lot of that gives me a MEGO experience. Here I have only 2 molds... cheap Lees. 1 for my 357 and 1 for my 41 mag... oh, and I use the Lee LLA tumble lube... as for alloy, I cheat and get the 25lbs of chilled shotgun shot and cast it up. Turns out about 13BHN if I am reading my hardness tester right.
I think it will take a few more passes through the thread to even come close to understanding most of it. I only knew to look at the bore for leading.
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Post by 2 Dogs on Jan 11, 2017 18:51:41 GMT -5
Man, talk about intimidation reading this thread. A lot of that gives me a MEGO experience. Here I have only 2 molds... cheap Lees. 1 for my 357 and 1 for my 41 mag... oh, and I use the Lee LLA tumble lube... as for alloy, I cheat and get the 25lbs of chilled shotgun shot and cast it up. Turns out about 13BHN if I am reading my hardness tester right. I think it will take a few more passes through the thread to even come close to understanding most of it. I only knew to look at the bore for leading. Here, before you run off... tell us how your targets look please!! Like you I tend to the keep it very simple if I can. Is what you are doing working for you?? If so, be sure and share your success! |
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Post by azshaun on Jan 11, 2017 19:01:52 GMT -5
Man, talk about intimidation reading this thread. A lot of that gives me a MEGO experience. Here I have only 2 molds... cheap Lees. 1 for my 357 and 1 for my 41 mag... oh, and I use the Lee LLA tumble lube... as for alloy, I cheat and get the 25lbs of chilled shotgun shot and cast it up. Turns out about 13BHN if I am reading my hardness tester right. I think it will take a few more passes through the thread to even come close to understanding most of it. I only knew to look at the bore for leading. Here, before you run off... tell us how your targets look please!! Like you I tend to the keep it very simple if I can. Is what you are doing working for you?? If so, be sure and share your success! Honestly, I am so much of a rookie, I can't tell how accurate the load is or if it is user error. Right now I shoot for consistency... everything is self taught and from reading. So, there really isn't anything to share yet. Embarrassingly, so. (S'why I lurked for so long) Right now I have been happy that my loads worked, didn't blow up, and that I haven't seen any leading... Should have seen my excitement shooting my first "hot" loads with my 357 and LLA and no leading about a month ago. |
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Post by 2 Dogs on Jan 11, 2017 19:34:00 GMT -5
Here, before you run off... tell us how your targets look please!! Like you I tend to the keep it very simple if I can. Is what you are doing working for you?? If so, be sure and share your success! Honestly, I am so much of a rookie, I can't tell how accurate the load is or if it is user error. Right now I shoot for consistency... everything is self taught and from reading. So, there really isn't anything to share yet. Embarrassingly, so. (S'why I lurked for so long) Right now I have been happy that my loads worked, didn't blow up, and that I haven't seen any leading... Should have seen my excitement shooting my first "hot" loads with my 357 and LLA and no leading about a month ago. Good for you and thanks for stepping up. Please remember what I always say, DONT SUFFER IN SILENCE!!! |
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Post by azshaun on Jan 11, 2017 19:54:32 GMT -5
Here is is my first cast bullets ever. 195 seconds 41 Mag from Lee.  After some some hints from Jim Taylor here is my follow up try. Both about a year ago.  |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 20:32:34 GMT -5
Do you have a pot thermometer? Your bullets look to me like you need to cast with hotter alloy, and let the mould get a bit warmer too. Then the wrinkles and rounded edges will start working their way out. Your second pic looks much better.
If you have questions, by all means please ask away. There's a huge amount of experience on these boards, and everybody is really helpful.
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