Wildcat, Proprietary, & Obsolete Cartridges

[mike454]

Oct 14, 2016 11:17:22 GMT -5 2 Dogs said:

Wow Mart. Thanks for your excellent post on the 400 Whelen!

Anyone here got anything on the 338/378 KT?

I have Elmer's Champlin 338/378 KT that he shot his 50th and last bull elk with as well as assorted mule deer and antelope. I'll put some info together.

[2 Dogs]

Oct 14, 2016 11:54:28 GMT -5 mart said:

2 Dogs,

Nothing on the 338/378KT but when I get home from the slope and can take some pictures I'll do some write ups on the 10.75x57, 6mmx222 and 256 Mannlicher.

Mart

I can't wait.

[mart]

I have long desired a classic 38-44 Smith and Wesson and despite never having seen ammo for this unusual cartridge, nor ever having seen a case drawing I set about to make my own ammo for the day I would eventually own one of these classic revolvers. Using my considerable skill as a cartridge designer and handloader I surmised what I considered to be the most likely dimensions and made a dummy round. Heavy on the dummy.

To date I have only seen the S&W 38-44's chambered in 38 special. I still have not found one that chambers my version of the 38-44 or anything close and no gunsmith has been willing to rechamber one for me. I'm beginning to loose heart in ever finding one or having one built. Perhaps it is just as well. I honesty doubt the actual ballistics will live up to my expectations. Sadly, that's so often true of wildcats.

[JM]

Beware of them high pressure rounds & signs of sticky extraction.

[2 Dogs]

Oct 14, 2016 13:21:47 GMT -5 mike454 said:

Oct 14, 2016 11:17:22 GMT -5 2 Dogs said:

Wow Mart. Thanks for your excellent post on the 400 Whelen!

Anyone here got anything on the 338/378 KT?

I have Elmer's Champlin 338/378 KT that he shot his 50th and last bull elk with as well as assorted mule deer and antelope. I'll put some info together.

That's outstanding!!!!!!!

[mike454]

338/378 KT
Shortly after Roy Weatherby introduced his 340 Weatherby round Elmer Keith took it hunting in Colorado with his friend and outfitter, R.W. Thompson. On that trip Elmer took an elk at 450 yards as well as a deer at 500. While Thompson used a 378 Weatherby for long range elk, Elmer had been an advocate of the 33 caliber bullets used in both the 333 OKH and 334 OKH.

When, in the late 60’s, Thompson suggested to Elmer that the ultimate long range rifle caliber might just be the big 378 case necked down to 338, Elmer insisted that the case be shortened by .250 to accommodate the slowest Hodgdon powders of the day. With that, they got together with Fred Huntington Jr. who made up the dies which Thompson than used to form the first cases. These were subsequently sent to Keith Francis who made the reamers which were used to produce a pressure barrel. Bruce Hodgdon determined that H4831 was perfectly suited to the round and worked up data with 210, 225, 250, 275. and 300 grain bullets.

The first rifle was built for Thompson by Champlin Haskins of Enid, OK. It was a full Keith Grade left handed gun stocked in a Reinhart Fajen laminate. The 275 grain speer was the favorite of both Keith and Thompson, who felt it would carry better than the 250 and 300 at long range. The first kill with the round was made by Thompson, who shot a nice Idaho mulie buck at 200 yards. After the initial testing, Keith and Thompson felt that the KT kicked less that the .378 as well as bucking the wind better at long range.

The round was never very popular, but did gain a few notable admirers including Bill Jordan, who used it and the Nosler 250 partition to shoot African game up to and including cape buffalo. Also I believe that Truman Fowler, Elmers friend and the publisher of Keith’s Safari used one successfully.

Elmer’s KT was made by Champlin-Haskins and was of course a Keith grade gun with all the bells and whistles, ribbed octagon barrel with integral rib, pop up front sight, extended tang and extended dragoon trigger guard to reimforce the wrist of the stock. Elmer eventually used this rifle to take pronghorn, mule deer, and 3 elk including his 50th and last bull elk. At his side the day he shot his last bull was a young Ross Seyfried. Ross , after watching a bull slapped down in his tracks at 300 yards vowed to one day own a 338/378 KT. Employing Elmer’s old gunmaker Iver Hendrickson for the metalwork and stocking the rifle himself in a gorgeous piece of quilted maple, Ross hunted the rifle far and wide, proclaiming it possibly the best trophy hunters rifle in existence.

When Elmers guns were auctioned off in 2015 I had the opportunity to talk to Ross about the sale. While I was most interested in acquiring one of Elmer’s single actions, Ross told me to pay attention to the Champlin, “No one knows what they are, it will go (relatively) cheap”. Sure enough, after all of the handguns went for more than I was willing to pay, the auctioneer hammered the gavel and the Champlin was mine.

Working up from 10% below the maximum of 103 grains of H4831. I found the best accuracy with 99 grains of H4831 and the 250 nosler. Using the maximum charge I was getting pinhole leaks in the case shoulder. It was then I noticed that Ross had settled on 100 grains of H4831. Asking him later why he uncharacteristically settled on a less than maximum load, he informed me that the old weatherby brass was a little soft for the full load but that he found perfect success 3 grains below maximum.

Cases are a bit of a pain to form, but RCBS still offers a 3 die forming set as the cases will need to have the shoulder set back, be necked down, sawed and filed to length in the trim die, neck reamed, then trimmed to final length with a case trimmer. At that point you have usable brass that can be loaded with a RCBS 2 die set.

[mart]

Great write up Mike and congrats on a great rifle. It's cool to own guns some of the gun writers of old once owned. I recently picked up a Charles Askins rifle, a model 70 converted to left handed in 308 Norma Mag.

I remember reading about that Champlin, I think in his Gun Notes column. Definitely an interesting rifle. Enjoy it, it's a wonderful piece of history.

Mart

[mike454]

Thanks Mart! Very cool to have Askins rifle. I was happy to get this rifle. As a long time Fan of Keith I was happy to get a rifle he hunted with quite a bit. I like to think of it as his last meat gun.

[2 Dogs]

It's a treasure of a rifle that the rest of us could only dream of owning. Please keep it afield when you can. It should last your grandsons at least. Thanks for sharing and color me green with envy.

[Rimfire69]

Thats great history on the Champlin, what an incredible thing to own.

[mart]

I didn't know if I had any 6mmx222 pictures with me but it turned out I did so here's a short write up.

I picked up three of the little Charles Daly left handed mini Mauser actions, still  in the white a few years ago. One I had barreled to 17 Remington, my all time favorite fur round and wanting something a bit different I considered some options such as the 6mmx222, 6x45, 25/222 Copperhead and even the 6.5 TCU. The determining factor boiled down to the small action and the fact that it really is too short to effectively house the x45 or x47 wildcats. Yes the bullets could be seated deep but I've never cared for that. So that really reduced my options to the 6mmx222 and the 25/222 Copperhead. I agonized for a few weeks over that decision. I liked the idea of a Copperhead because John Wooters, the gentleman who did the most to develop and promote the wildcat was a favorite writer of mine. I still think it would make a wonderful little rifle and having one action left it still is not off the table.

I elected the 6mmx222 or 243 Myra as it is called in Australia because there are simply far more 6mm bullets available than the 25 caliber bullets, especially in the lighter weights. The purpose I had in mind for this little rifle is a fur rifle with a little more oomph than a standard 222 for coyotes and wolves but not so destructive as to tear up the more fragile foxes and cats. I had envisioned it being best suited with 80 grain bullets at about 2600-2700 fps although I anticipate trying some of the lighter bullets for fur as well. The action went to Pac Nor for barreling and then off to MPI for a synthetic stock.

The 6mmx222 gained a bit of notoriety from Sam Fadala's writings in the 1980's. I don't recall exactly what year he wrote about it but he was quite pleased with the little round. He used it primarily for deer and antelope, while my focus for the cartridge is fur, I wouldn't rule out taking it out for deer or antelope. I've not seen many of either in my neck of the Alaska woods. Unfortunately I've not had much time to fur hunt since I built the rifle but it will be going with me the end of this month to eastern Washington and Idaho for some fur calling.

The little round meets my expectations. It does drive an 80-85 grain bullet to 2600-2700 fps. It will kick a 70 grain to 2800 and a 55 grain to almost 3000. It will push a 100 grain Hornady round nose to 2450. I doubt I'll ever use the bullet for big game but I might take it out for a black tail trip one of these years.

Recoil is practically nonexistent, even in as light a rifle as this. It weighs right at 6 pounds scoped. A joy to carry for sure and the report is gentle compared to some of the more high intensity rounds. The various 80 and 85 grain bullets over 23 grains of H4895 all shoot within a few fps of each other and all to the same POI at 100 yards and within two inches of each other at 300. Switching back and forth between loads requires no changes to the zero. And considering that 90% or more of the coyotes I've called over the years have been under 200 yards and the greatest percentage of them under 100, I'm not too concerned about a minor variation in POI at 300. I hope to have some dead critter pictures to share next month and a further report on this little rifle's effectiveness as a fur gun.

Here's some pictures of some of what I considered prior to the build. The far left is the 6mmx222. Next to it is the 6x45 with the bullet seated to fit the magazine of the mini Mauser. Beside it are the 6x45 and 6x47 with the bullets seated to the base of the neck. The middle group are the 25x222, 25x223 and 25x222 Rem Mag. The two on the right are the 6.5x222 and 6.5x223. The two groups on the right have the bullets seated just to the base of the neck.



This is the little Daly action with a 6mmx222 round in the magazine. It looks perfectly suited for the action.

And the finished rifle. Pac Nor #1 contour barrel, MPI stock and flat black cerrakote finish.

[mike454]

Neat little round. I remember reading Wooters writing about the 25/222 Copperhead back years ago and thinking it was a great idea.

[eskimo36]

I have a 6x223imp in a McGowen barreled Sako L-461. I bought it as that but it would be better served as a 6mmx222. Not enough meat in the barrel to set it back. My kids and visitors for deer season have killed many deer with it over the past 25 years.

[frankenfab]

I'm not set up to post pictures any more. I have a Weatherby Vanguard rifle and 15" Encore pistol in .224 Weatherby. It's between the .223 and .22-250 in ballistics.

I just felt sorry for the little forgotten cartridge, so I bought the reamer, and re-chambered the guns from .223 versions.

[williamiorg]

Several years ago I took a close look at the .30-30 Ackley Improved. Taking a look at the history of the cartridge I ended up in a series of conversations with the late James C. Tillinghast a cartridge collector who had quite a list of cartridges for sale. Mr. Tillinghast knew a great deal about pre-war wildcat cartridges. He casually mentioned a pre-WWII .30-30 Improved with the shoulder moved forward but a moderate shoulder angle.
Mr. Tillinghast thought this one was loaded by J. B. Smith who Townsend Whelen dubbed: “The Greatest Handloader of All Times”
There was a .25-35 version also.
I asked if these were pretty obscure wildcats and Tillinghast responded: “No, they were reasonably well known but nobody wrote about them. Back in those days we had to peck out letters on a manual typewriter. It had to be serious business to warrant more than one page and not very many people were interested in the .30-30 at the time.”
Mr. Tillinghast gave me one for my collection. Thinking back on this the first time I saw a .30-30AI was when I pulled a fire formed case the chamber of my rifle. Even popular wildcats arenot in common circulation.