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Post by cherokeetracker on Apr 17, 2016 23:45:20 GMT -5
+1 on that David.
Charles
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Post by webber on Apr 17, 2016 23:48:51 GMT -5
I find this interesting. The reason is that if one can keep the sights aligned and operate the trigger in such a way as to keep the sights aligned till the gun fires the shot should be in there.
Now grip comfort and repeatability is important but it is not the most important thing. The most important thing is trigger control and sight alignment.
Once a consistent and repeatable grip is learned for the gun you are shooting and the trigger pull is close to the same and correct follow through is learned for the long lock time of the single action compared to the Smith and Wesson you should be fine.
Is it that one doesn't want to take the time and effort to learn the the other gun? If it is just be honest about it. Nothing wrong with that.
Still a shooter and effort problem.
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Post by bradshaw on Apr 18, 2016 9:09:41 GMT -5
I've been shooting handguns for quite a few years... but... could not shoot it worth beans. I quickly learned I did not like shooting the "Ruger Only" loads due to the recoil. I backed down the reloads to more manageable levels of 270 gr bullet at 1000-1100 fps. I could still not shoot it worth beans... picked up a Ruger flattop Blackhawk in 45 Colt/45 ACP with a 4 3/4 inch barrel... love the way this revolver feels in my hand, but... can't shoot it worth beans either. Answer: A 270 grain .45 @ 1,000-1,100 fps is not a light load. It is a medium load. For pussycat recoil, drop to 800 fps. Also, to switch from Ruger Bisley to Blackhawk grip amplifies recoil.A buddy had a Smith 24 44 special with a 6.5 inch barrel...I picked it up... I shoot this revolver much better than the Ruger with similar loads... Is it normal for some people to shoot one type of revolver better...? Answer: YES.Is there a different technique to shooting a single action revolver than a double action revolver? Answer: Other than for hand position, NO. I prefer HEEL INDEX grasp of SA grip, a SHOULDER INDEX on DA grip. Should I send the Ruger down the road to a good home? Answer: YES----unless you can afford to keep, unoccupied while you learn the S&W, and unless you can concentrate on the Smith without thinking about the Ruger....and pick up a Smith 4 inch 44 instead? Answer: Easier to learn on the 6-1/2-inch. I spent years with, first, a 6-1/2" M-29 on my hip morning noon and night. Later, packed the 4-inch 29. Each----in a fine example of the breed----is a spectacular revolver. How you use the pistol must factor heavily into your decision. Nearly always when I wore the 6-1/2", everyone knew it. The 4" spent much of its life unknown to others.Thanks for any opinions Rob
David Bradshaw |
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Post by webber on Apr 18, 2016 9:32:56 GMT -5
Let me understand this "fact".
If it is a "fact"that if one will hold a SA consistently, operate the trigger in such a way as to not disturb the sight alignment, keep proper sight alignment and have good follow through one can't shoot the SA as well as the DA using the same principle on it? We're assuming the same degree of accuracy with the gun/ammo combination
If that is fact that would be a gun problem and not a shooter problem or would it?
Please elaborate on what is a gun problem and a shooter problem concerning accuracy concerning SA verses DA when proper principles are applied to both by the shooter.
Thanks
PS. I am not trying to pick at the very knowledgeable Mr Bradshaw but, since I barely got out,of high school, I can't tell if he is saying it is a gun problem, a shooter problem or a combination of each.
If it is a combination of each what percentage of the problem is contributed to the SA and what percentage attributed to the shooter?
Or is he just being nice and trying to tell the shooter that he needs to get on with the the program in a diplomatic way.
Thanks.
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Post by flyfisher66048 on Apr 18, 2016 19:39:08 GMT -5
Thanks again for the input folks. I'm guessing I have a lot of fun work in front of me to get over my past experiences. I was on the national team as a skeet shooter, and loved shooting anything moving with my shotguns. Then I got into IPSC/IDPA and also loved hauling a$$ with handguns. All of my shooting in the the past has not put trigger control/accuracy at the top of required abilities. I have some habits to overcome.
My interests now are focused on learning how to shoot a handgun more accurately, so I can use one for hunting deer and pigs. I was on a pig hunt with some Soldiers this past DEC. One of the Soldiers shot a nice pig perfectly between the eye and ear hole with his well used 1911 45 acp at 35 yards off hand. The pig was DRT (Dead Right There). I thought - that is very cool. I don't have the confidence in my shooting ability with a handgun to even attempt that shot at this point in time with a handgun. I think I will put the Ruger back in the safe, and practice more with the handgun I shoot better. I'm also going to work up some lighter loads to facilitate easy shooting while I'm learning this new skill. This should be an interesting summer.
V/R
Rob
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Post by bradshaw on Apr 19, 2016 7:50:57 GMT -5
webber.... my answers to Rob, a.k.a. flyfisher, rely on neither opinion nor theory. While noting some shooters indeed shoot one type of revolver more accurately than another, here is another FACT: the Interterms Virginian Dragoon silhouette model, released around 1981-82, and referred to by IHMSA competitors as the Silhouette Dragoon, enjoyed a brief life on the steel game's firing line. A good example groups 5-shots in 3-inches or less at 100 meters (110 yards). Some silhouetters handled the Silhouette Dragoon, which was produced in .357 and .44 Magnum, very well. Others just could not follow-through the long hammer fall (long lock time) of the Virfinian. Especially relevant when the shooter must perform under NERVE PRESSURE, an inescapable FACT of COMPETITION.
David Bradshaw
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Post by webber on Apr 19, 2016 8:29:08 GMT -5
Mr. Bradshaw,
Thanks for your last answer and it was verification as to what I thought at the outset.
Sometimes what one doesn't say or sometimes will say in an indirect fashion is spot on.
Yours was spot on.
Me being more into a direct approach did not see what you were actually saying.
Now I get it.. Now that is "fact".
Thanks.
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Post by bradshaw on Apr 19, 2016 23:50:11 GMT -5
This is a shooter problem. *** webber.... I cannot possibly verify your "this is a shooter problem" position. As you carry the great advantage of youth, saying you are just out of high school, you may drop your fixation on the declarative sentence, step to the firing line, load your revolver, and enter the sharpshooting world of the perpetual student. It pays to listen. This alone is good reason to protect your hearing. While in high school I was introduced to High Power Rifle, often referred to as service rifle competition. I was coached by Masters, and shoot various Springfield Model 1903's----smooth bolt action in rapid fire----from stock with tangent sight, to match bastards with bull pipe barrels and Redfield micrometer aperture , and the now antique M1 Garand. Issued, along the way, a Garand National Match. The kid was a sponge. When you're a kid and you medal in national competition with the M-1 and the World War Two boys embrace you, that is a place that cannot be bought. The revolver is a great instrument to learn. Ours may be a breed of dinosaurs, curiously disdained by a generation packing plastic festooned with rodent textured handle and lizard scale slide. From the firing line, David Bradshaw |
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Post by webber on Apr 20, 2016 2:31:49 GMT -5
Me. Bradshaw,
I did not say I am barely OUT of high school. I said I barely GOT OUT of high school meaning I was just smart enough to get out.
You sir, are not much older than me. I have shot handguns much of my life and still shoot them.
That is the reason I have made the statements I have.
While I am surely not the good shooter you are I still fire both DA and SA handguns and do equally as well with both. Probably because I shoot both probably an equal amount.
Also, while my experience is not as great as yours I have found 1. That if one keeps the sights aligned. 2. Operates the trigger in a way as not to disturb the sight alignment till the gun fires. 3. Utilizes,good follow through. 4. The shot will be in there.
Now if one is using a gun, of either mode, that has problems the shot may not be in there. Then that becomes a gun problem as long as one is doing the above four things I listed.
I have a buddy that can't shoot a single action as well as the double action too. Even if both has the same accuracy level.
It is a shooter problem in his case too.
Different recoil action bothers him. But then again that is a shooter problem too.
Recoil from both bothers him but he still shoots the DA better than the SA.
It is still a shooter problem.
I am far enough past 60 that I am not wet behind the ears by a long shot on handguns. Just more wrinkled, more unstable, more weaker, less hair but I still have my good looks regardless of what my wife says.
So it is a shooter problem. Just as you so diplomatically stated when recalling the post about the Virginian Dragoon, of which my buddy had one many, many, many years ago. Not the model you are talking about but the standard model in 44 Mag.
Again while my shooting career is seriously pathetic when measured by your outstanding career, and also with a lack of intelligence as compared with most on here I have learned much by quite observation of the shooters I have been around. This I won't go into as it will raise hackles when I start comparisons with the Christmas goose and shooters in general.
Again thanks.
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hammer
.30 Stingray
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Post by hammer on Apr 20, 2016 5:47:41 GMT -5
Biggest challenge for me in transitioning to single actions was the lack of "hump" at the back of the grip frame, against which my hand indexes for consistent hold. Lacking that high indicator, use the bottom of the grip frame and/or grips for the indicator of a consistent hold. It may feel odd to someone used to the S&W grip, but it grows on you. I agree that follow through can be a big issue, as the hammer fall seems a lot slower on a single action. With your grip relatively lower compared to the chamber and cylinder, you have to manage recoil differently - namely, by letting it roll, up and away from your strong handl, rather than fighting it. Jeff Cooper was best known for shooting 1911 pistols. He had his S&W Model 29 fitted with stocks that allowed him to match his 1911 high-thumb grip. Think he did the same with a single-action Ruger. . |
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Post by webber on Apr 20, 2016 6:37:34 GMT -5
"Jeff Cooper was best known for shooting 1911 pistols.
He had his S&W Model 29 fitted with stocks that allowed him to match his 1911 high-thumb grip.
Think he did the same with a single-action Ruger."
Let say Mr Cooper did those things to the Smith so he could shoot the Smith well. Would that be a shooter problem or a gun problem.
Let's say he couldn't shoot an SA as well. Would that be a shooter problem or a gun problem
Would he blame the gun or would he blame himself?
Just to touch on a well known "fact", most like to blame the gun for their poor shooting rather than themselves.
There is no way it can be the shooter, right?
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lah
.30 Stingray
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Post by lah on Apr 22, 2016 11:45:01 GMT -5
A S&W is much easier for me to shoot. I'm very comfortable with the grip & can repeat my hold. I'm 2 months or so into a Ruger BH & have purposed to master it by New Years. They are a different animal for me. Been working for a comfortable, repeatable grip. About got that one figured out with the standard Ruger stocks. I also believe the lock time is slower on the BH. Like Dick says: a 1000 groups & you're off to a good start. Geez I'm slow.
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Post by webber on Apr 22, 2016 12:46:20 GMT -5
LAH,
The lock time is slower and the hammer fall is heavier. That can be seen and proven to ones self simply by looking at the distance the hammers have to travel.
But the shooting of said SA more and more will improve ones ability.
While not educated enough to write fancy, witty sentences I can say, practice and learn the gun.
You will soon be able to return to the same grip position and tension with a SA. Occasionally still shoot the DA as one still needs to keep ones hand in.
I have found with me which isn't "fact" for everyone but if I vary my grip tension (I am not as young as I used to be and can't without purposeful concentration) my shots will string. Nice groups horizontally but strung vertically
Again that is a shooter (me) problem.
Endeavor to persevere. You will shoot a SA very well.
I am now actually shooting a SA as much as a DA now.
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Post by BRASF0311 on Apr 22, 2016 21:42:34 GMT -5
I shoot Smiths with my Rugers. ;-)
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Post by rkcohen on Apr 30, 2016 18:02:51 GMT -5
all of these different disciplines - all sounds like - practice doesn't it?
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