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Post by webber on Jan 18, 2019 10:08:57 GMT -5
Seeing the photos and reading the attendant captions and knowing Mr Bradshaw is considered Mr IHMSA I would like to present a curious question to him.
I know IHMSA targets are placed 50, 100, 150 and 200 meters which is 3.282 rounded feet per meter.
Here is the question on the subject I am curious about. Did anyone ever, just for fun, place a ram at a range of 400, 500 or even 600 yards and see how well the shooter could do on hitting the ram at the extended ranges?
While I know that exercise would have nothing to do concerning a match, but, was it ever done by any shooter that was curious on the results of such an exercise shooting said highly accurate revolvers with the attendant highly accurate loads.
I believe if I had been an IHMSA shooter, especially of note, and also being a tad curious, I believe my curioisity would have fueled me into trying the extended distances just to fulfill my curious desires.
Did you Mr Bradshaw, or anyone else ever do it?
Thank you
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Post by bradshaw on Jan 18, 2019 11:12:38 GMT -5
Seeing the photos and reading the attendant captions and knowing Mr Bradshaw is considered Mr IHMSA I would like to present a curious question to him. I know IHMSA targets are placed 50, 100, 150 and 200 meters which is 3.282 rounded feet per meter. Here is the question on the subject I am curious about. Did anyone ever, just for fun, place a ram at a range of 400, 500 or even 600 yards and see how well the shooter could do on hitting the ram at the extended ranges? While I know that exercise would have nothing to do concerning a match, but, was it ever done by any shooter that was curious on the results of such an exercise shooting said highly accurate revolvers with the attendant highly accurate loads. I believe if I had been an IHMSA shooter, especially of note, and also being a tad curious, I believe my curioisity would have fueled me into trying the extended distances just to fulfill my curious desires. Did you Mr Bradshaw, or anyone else ever do it? Thank you ***** Handgun silhouette borrowed patterns for the chicken, pig, turkey, and ram from NRA Rifle Silhouette. Chicken----rifle=200 meters; handgun=50m. Pig----rifle=300 meters; handgun=100m. Turkey----rifle=385 meters; handgun=150m. Ram----rifle=500 meters; handgun=200m. NRA Rifle is shot OFFHAND only. Position in the International Handgun Metallic Silhouette Association (IHMSA) include FREESTYLE, which is any safe position in which the gun does not touch the ground, and STANDING (offhand), for which the elbows must clear the chest. In IHMSA there are categories for PRODUCTION closed breech pistols and revolvers, and UNLIMITED. Since its heyday, IHMSA created categories for optical sights. Steel shooters have stretched ranges beyond distances set for sanctioned matches. Space permitting, the sky is the limited. I’ve shot sixguns and single shots from the Creedmoor position at extended distances at ranges in New Hampshire and Texas, among others, and at the random gravel pit, valley, and hillside. Creedmoor and its cousin the Dead Frog positions provide the longest EYE RELIEF, thus are superior to any other freestyle position for iron sights. When you lay down on a ram----back-to-belly measures 12-inches----you quickly realize the target half the size or less of a man silhouette, which has a long vertical. TRAJECTORY is the big deal with a sixgun. You cannot push a sixgun bullet fast enough to escape its anvil trajectory at long range. I am amazed at the consistency of trajectory & wind drift from an accurate bullet in an accurate revolver. Some bullets loose accuracy before 100 yards; obviously, such a bullet is useless for distance. In silhouette the bullet and load must be known at 220 yards, otherwise you chase your last shot. The bullroar that a bullet loses accuracy when it goes transsonic is so disproven as to brand one who promotes the theory as inexperienced. Due to the mortar-like trajectory of a revolver bullet at distances beginning around 2-1/2 football fields, the 12-inch chest of a ram rapidly shrinks. The angle at which a dropping bullet sees the ram makes the target smaller. In competition, of course, “close” equals ZERO on the score card. Nevertheless, when the opportunity to shoot your sixgun long arises, take advantage! To record in a notebook gun, load, sight adjustments, distances and conditions, allows the information to be reviewed unembellished away from the firing line and to repeat the DOPE as necessary. Note that Creedmoor and Dead Frog are freestyle positions fired with ONE HAND. Your .500 Linebaugh, .500 JRH, .500 Linebaugh Maximum and .500 S&W might crack you elbow firing Creedmoor on caliche. As a hint I’m not ready to hang up the sixgun, when firing a magnum I don’t allow my elbow to contact hard anything. There is at least one group who shoots revolvers at rams @ 500 meters (547 yards). The .375 Super Mag does well. Momentum favors streamlined bullets, but you can only do so much within the length of a cylinder and with the pressure vent called a cylinder gap. The efficiency of rifle-type cartridges takes a plunge within the launch environ of a revolver. Yet, to shoot LONG is fun, and an important part of a sharpshooter’s education. It is not possible to comprehend the effects of gravity and wind without taking the challenge head-on in the great outdoors. David Bradshaw |
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Post by webber on Jan 18, 2019 11:42:32 GMT -5
I was actually wondering about any of the results of the shooting I presented in the aforementions question. I realize that the lobbing trajectory of the 44 Magnum is a problem that is presented due to Ballistic Coefficient and the limited velocity due to cartridge lenght, powder and barrel length and the type of powder I was wondering what the accuracy would be given a top shooter on a good day both wind, visual acuity, after a few ranging shots with a spotter that knows their business.
While it is a given that long range shooting with a revolver presents a set of magnified problems, especially once the range goes past "normal" (what ever that is) based on the individuals ability.
The difficulty involved in the type of shooting I asked about is multiplied by the lack of ability and knowledge of the shooter.
But as some people, in life, can overcome problems (loss of limbs, eyesight, etc.) many think is impossible, I am sure it can be done in shooting long range with a revolver due to intense shooting at those distances, ballistic knowledge and a near complete education on trajectory and the attendant problems of lighting problems, wind problems etc..
Most of these things, as one practices, studies etc. will make the exercise less difficult, while never eliminating the difficulties.
Still I was more interested if the top IHMSA loads would still do well, if the top shooters could still do well and the accuracy obtained, if known.
While I mentioned the ram target it didnt have to be a ram. Maybe a reasonable sized rock, a constructed wooden target with paper to record hits, Maybe a B27 target etc..
Again many thanks for the effort.
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Post by bradshaw on Jan 18, 2019 13:40:28 GMT -5
“.... wondering about any of the results of the shooting I presented in the aforementions question.”
----webber
*****
Starting with a bullet of high accuracy, such a championship winning Sierra .357, .41, or 44, or a cast SWC of equally high accuracy, we may rough out a STRAIGHT CONE of DISPERSION.
A bullet which records 5x5=1” @ 100 yards: 2” @ 200 yards; 3” @ 300 yards; 4” @ 400 yards; 5” @ 500 yards.
A bullet which records 5x5=2” @ 100 yards: 4” @ 200 yards, 6” @ 300 yards, etc.
A bullet which records 5x5=4” @ 100 yards is unlikely to record 8” @ 200 yards, with accuracy deterioration taking an outward arc instead of a straight line.
It is important that the revolver itself be capable of 5x5= 2” @ 100. Otherwise, accuracy deterioration will not be due to bullet alone. Another fly enters the ointment, and it is more like an elephant. WIND. Wind doesn’t care how great your bullet is, it will bend it. Between a breeze at the muzzle and the same value breeze in front of the target, the breeze in front of the target will bend the bullet more. Why? The answer is TIME. As a bullet sheds velocity it takes more time to cover the same distance.
An amazing feature of a well balanced revolver bullet registers in the consistency with which it rides the wind. A light bullet----the Rugers were fond of calling them “short wheelbase bullets"----tends to be whippier in wind. But it is not just wheelbase; a .22 Long Rifle makes for an sensitive wind gauge. And foe all its velocity, the puny .17 does not do well in the ring against wind. Whereas, a meatball chug-chug sixgun bullet may bend so hard its wind drift exceeds its trajectory, as happened over the course of fire at the IHMSA 1978 International Championships. To those who knew how to place their spotting scope it was a visual sensation. And a sensation to watch the consistency as for two of the four days, the wind which kept the long red military range flags straight out on their poles from 9 to 3 o’clock. Jamming fierce lessons for those who got down and did not panic.
Elsewhere in the DB Volume series of photo essays, my Freedom Arms .44 Mag with 10-inch Shilen barrel by Jim Stroh, records 3x3 groups of about 4-inches @ 300 yards. Groups depicted were shot in strong steady winds. A tiny breeze affects wind drift. I calculated drift on the Sierra .44 240 JHC and Sierra 250 FPJ (Full Profile Jacket). Without looking it up, I think I put 68-clicks of left windage----before firing the first shot @ 300 yards----on the Leupold 2.5-8x36mm EER scope with Leupold Target Turrets. My dope comes from a mixture of tables in loading manuals and time on the mountain.
At some distance the CONE of DISPERSION heads into a Horn of Dispersion. Beyond imperfection in a bullet, I have no hard evidence of this. A bullet born out-of-balance put out-of-balance by the forcing cone, or tipped in an oversize chamber exit or bore, will never know a cone of dispersion. That poor bullet is doomed from the moment to departs the muzzle to a HORN of DISPERSION.
David Bradshaw
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Post by jfs on Jan 18, 2019 14:47:13 GMT -5
DB, Picked up a 8" Field Pistol" barrel and shroud for my .32 DW... Did you shoot this caliber?? 
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Post by bradshaw on Jan 19, 2019 10:31:27 GMT -5
James.... don’t think I’ve held a Dan wesson M-15 .32, let alone pour lead down the pipe. Would seem a readymade caliber for the 100 meter or yard Field Pistol silhouette game, which is shot offhand only and requires straightwall centerfire, as well as for rabbits, squirrels, etc. Is that a Burris base on rib of the 8” shroud?
DWA introduced the M-15 .22 LR with an expectation the revolver would repeat DWA success in big bore silhouette. Problems arose as .22s were shipped with good barrels but rough forcing cones, and rough chambers, an intolerable situation for the soft .22 bullet. Spitting & leading beset some of the .22s, enough so the initial surge of silhouette interest faded. A small bore is an unforgiving critic of chamber roughness and any chamber-to-bore misalignment, and a less-than-sweet forcing cone----no matter how fine the bore & groove.
I expect forum members will any reports on accuracy of the Dan Wesson .32 like pigs at the trough,
David Bradshaw
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Post by jfs on Jan 19, 2019 17:12:10 GMT -5
DB, Kinda figured you were a big bore match shooter and yes... that is a Burris scope mount.... I could not pass it up to add to my DW 32mag...
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jsh
.327 Meteor
Posts: 884
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Post by jsh on Jan 20, 2019 10:09:38 GMT -5
DW .22 experience on steel critters.
Each cylinder shot its own group. Went from father to a son to me. The gun had never shot a 40. Came with lots of load dope.
You started on a cylinder designated #1. From there on you changed hold on the animal in order to keep some type of center area hit. Get out of rythem or start with the wrong cylinder and it was a train wreck.
I fought with it for two seasons and passed it on to a collector of DW's. Shooting in the mid to upper 20's was the best I could do. Buddy has a long barreled single six that has scratched out 40's when planets are in alignment. The Ruger has accounted for numerous high 30's. It has also won out at a few KS-MO "border wars" to the dismay of some FA shooters.
The 32 DW I have handled and shot were fine rigs, though never had the opportunity to stretch its legs on steel animals.
Jeff
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Post by bradshaw on Jan 20, 2019 11:44:30 GMT -5
DW .22 experience on steel critters. Each cylinder shot its own group. Went from father to a son to me. The gun had never shot a 40. Came with lots of load dope. You started on a cylinder designated #1. From there on you changed hold on the animal in order to keep some type of center area hit. Get out of rythem or start with the wrong cylinder and it was a train wreck. I fought with it for two seasons and passed it on to a collector of DW's. Shooting in the mid to upper 20's was the best I could do. Buddy has a long barreled single six that has scratched out 40's when planets are in alignment. The Ruger has accounted for numerous high 30's. It has also won out at a few KS-MO "border wars" to the dismay of some FA shooters. The 32 DW I have handled and shot were fine rigs, though never had the opportunity to stretch its legs on steel animals. Jeff ***** Jeff.... thank you for input. Your experience brings up memories from the steel days. I remember IHMSA silhouetters asking me about SPITTING from the DWA .22 LR, for which I had no answer. Chamber-to-bore alignment, so critical on a .22, was a problem. Dan Wesson Arms struggled with quality control, a subject I discussed numerous times with management and a couple of the guys on the shop floor. Mind you, management was not a top-heavy affair at DWA; a lack of operating capital, compounded by sluggish recognition from the S&W-Ruger buyer, hampered sales. Despite plenty of fixtures on hand to machine the hardware, a surprising amount of hand work went into fitting the old Colt Officers Model Match .22 and the S&W K-22. Ruger slimmed down the labor aspect while maintaining respectable accuracy in the Single Six, and with emphasis on the blue collar market, turning a toehold into a major bite of the market. IHMSA silhouette acted as a savior of sorts for DWA, a niche utterly dependent on very high accuracy. You can’t feed a steel shooter bullroar. Freedom Arms also saw IHMSA as the indisputable vehicle to prove accuracy of Dick Casull’s Model 83, which performance on the Firing Line would override any naysayer and generate respect which cannot be bought on Madison Avenue. As silhouette evolved from LEATHER & GRIT to sleek refinement, a competitor vying for the top demanded a revolver (which, except for trigger job with factory parts cannot be altered) with as close to guaranteed accuracy as you can get. Freedom Arms delivered. Stepping into the rimfire arena, the Model 83 was modified for .22 Long Rifle with refinement serious enough to challenge the intrinsic accuracy of any closed breech mechanism, an astonishing accomplishment. It seems in the rimfire DWA was not able to hold the incredible chamber and bore tolerances of its big frame revolvers. Some DWA .22 LR’s are real shooters and probably the exception. Not everyone can afford or is willing to pay top loot for a .22, or any other revolver. The difference between a top silhouette accuracy from a Ruger or S&W .44 and the Freedom Arms is smaller than the layman may think. However, if there is anything resembling “average accuracy,” the Freedom Arms wins hands down. David Bradshaw |
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jsh
.327 Meteor
Posts: 884
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Post by jsh on Jan 21, 2019 13:02:58 GMT -5
Not to derail the thread. I was directed here via a 375 super mag thoughts, or even a magnum length 375. As I read and asked about such a project I was pointed towards the 41 magnum. I have found them to be user friendly along with good accuracy with cast and jacketed.
I have located a slight used 375 DW. I patiently await the owners effort to give in and sell it to me.
I was late in life owning an FA. I had loan of a couple and shot several others by generous IHMSA shooters. I fought with the SW 29 10 5/8" we had visited about before, for more years than I should have.
I bought a mentors 83 357. It is one of my most enjoyable guns bar none. It s fed a diet of cast 200's from an LBT mold made specific for it. It is accurate enough to use in production and revolver classes easily.
One weekend with a low turn out of shooters I ran it through P-R-U classes. Missing a total of 4 targets out of the 60 that weekend gave me high honors in all three classes.
I always enjoy your input and history lessons.
Jeff
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