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Post by Doc Barranti on Nov 3, 2015 6:58:17 GMT -5
PC bullets work just fine on critters... My youngest boy, Frankie, recently took this doe with my 77/44, shooting the Skeeter load consisting of a Tank Hoover solid nose PC Keith bullet over 7.5 grains of Unique in 44 Special brass... Around 60 or so yards through the lungs. Went about 100 yards.    Many thanks to our friend Curt, forum member COR!  |
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jsh
.327 Meteor
Posts: 884
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Post by jsh on Nov 3, 2015 6:59:16 GMT -5
Jeff, have you checked bhn before and after the baking?
I have meant to do that but the LBT tester is a few miles away.
I think there is a happy medium on the hardness. Not really a sweet spot, but yet it is.
Stock wheel guns and in an FA or two were fed a steady diet of water dropped alloy, because this was what "we" were told was best. I got into a casting session away from the house and didn't have my water bucket set up. What the heck I will just cast any way and air cool. Shooting pare and I noticed right off the bat that the Ruger SW and FA all shot tighter groups on steel critters with them. Could have been all the planets were in alignment and the shooting box gremlins were on vacation.
Air cooled every thing since. Remelted all but a few water dropped in caliber from 6.5-.45.
Shot what I believe to be the first in my state 40x40 1/2 size cast bullet score with the 30-30 TC. A shoot off ensued with three of us on the line. A 7BR and a .223 both jacketed. Both seasoned shooters one of them being the IHMSA Int. class champ several years in a row. My seven .22 small bore chickens at 200m beat their five that day. Air cooled,WW alloy, gas checked with a dose of SR4759 in the 30-30.
I won't say hard isn't the way to go, nor is one better than the other. Honestly think it depends on the size, load, design and the gun.
Myself, I still have a hard time wrapping my brain around the "slugging" up thoughts on size. I mean you start out .001 over groove depth and it slugs up? How can it get bigger when it is over sized already? Drives me nuts.
Jeff
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Post by hoover on Nov 3, 2015 7:13:55 GMT -5
Jeff, I water quench everything I cast just to keep production up and not deform bullets when they drop out of the mold. I use a LBT lead tester. My water quenched WW alloy, or alchemist nixture of same run a steady 20 bhn. After the baking for the PC process, they measured a 10 bhn on the same LBT tester. Lastly, when I talk about performance, I'm talking about on game. When killing steel, I totally understand the concept of a maleable slug holding together and a harder, brittle cast bullet disintegrating on impact of a steel target.
Thanks for posting Doc! Great to see Frankie slinging lead and getting something wirh a PC slug!
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Post by sixshot on Nov 3, 2015 12:21:45 GMT -5
Boy the memories are flooding back from 1976-77 when Handgun Silhouette first started sweeping the USA! Guys were going nuts before the off set rule on rams, they were making bullets harder, running loads hotter, blowing top straps & cylinders trying to take those damn rams off! Then some of the smart guys finally figured it out (I wasn't one of them) you needed a few more milliseconds of "time on target" before breaking, or as David mentioned yesterday "dwell time" to take off those rams. Hard bullets wouldn't do it, tough bullets WOULD do it. It took push, momentum, etc. not a brittle bullet going another 150 per second to break up even faster. When Elgin decided to go with the off set rule to save guys from blowing up their guns it solved a lot of problems. I saw a guy once who fired a shot with his Ruger SBH & the gun got away from him (shooting prone) & it actually went over his head & landed behind his feet! The match was at my range & Elgin was running the line, he about croaked! Well, we're off for 2 weeks to Arkansas!
Dick.......Duck
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dmize
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 2,834
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Post by dmize on Nov 3, 2015 15:51:13 GMT -5
I never had a question about hardcast killing power. My major gripe,as I believe is Fermins,is the lack of a blood trail.
The buck I killed 2 years ago with the 480 and the one last year with the 475 were terrible. I watched both drop but blood trails were practically non existant.
But with Tanks tutelage and patience I have pc'd hp's ready to go in everything this year.
I am kinda curious as to what the 50's do for wound channel.
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jsh
.327 Meteor
Posts: 884
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Post by jsh on Nov 3, 2015 19:49:01 GMT -5
Jeff we are the same page, only I was holding my book upside down, lol. Dick hit the nail on the head with "toughness".
Some place I had some info on grain structure on air cooled, water quenched and oven heat treated.
When my shooting bud came up with the #1 in 458 Lott, we made some soft nosed 500 grainers. Water jug and wet newspaper bullet catching media, mushroomed nicely and held together. I would still like to do some hog tipping with that one.
Jeff
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Post by sixshot on Nov 5, 2015 23:19:55 GMT -5
Not wanting to start an argument here but how many kills & blood trails would you like me to show you. I guarantee it will be many , many dozens of kills with good blood trails. The only problem with the blood trails is very few will be over 10-15 yds in 50 years of killing with cast. Not hard cast but cast about 10-12 BHN 99% of the time. Probably haven't water quenched 300 lbs of alloy in those 50 years.
One or two kills isn't a very good sample, but 150-175 will teach you something about placement & hardness.
Dick
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jsh
.327 Meteor
Posts: 884
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Post by jsh on Nov 6, 2015 19:08:38 GMT -5
Mr B, great to see young folks out there hunting, then to have success is great. You and Glenn better hadn't let them two young guys get to talking or you could both be in trouble, lol.
"Yes dear, but it's for the children"
That phrase worked for me for a while.
I have not used cast for hunting as long as Dick, nor killed as many critters with a CB.
As to blood trails. I am color blind, red, green and brown. Certain shades are what get me.
And before one of ya ask, yes I know the difference between the red and green lights :-).
I have yet to recover a cast bullet from a handgun or a rifle on deer. I have tried different angles and stretched distances, no luck, in and out.
How ever on internal damage, a cast bullet of a "tough" alloy does as much damge as a jacketed from my findings. Shot placement is key as mentioned.
I don't neck shoot. I think there are more folks that do this than one would believe.
Front shoulder shots with a good design deflate them like a flat tire. But tend to blood shot more meat, I myself can work around that and have ways of dealing with it.
Behind the front shoulder. I think folks that take these shots and have issues, shoot further back than they planned too.
I myself try to poke holes through both lungs. I hate tearing up the heart, as I rank it right there with loins and tenderloins.
FYI , the majority of the CB deer I have taken were with a 357 and a 180.
A few years back I was so ate up with trying cast, I shot five deer with five different guns in five different calibers. Never recovered a bullet never lost a deer.
The blood trail I need, Ray Charles would be able to follow it also.
Jeff
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Post by BigBore44 on Nov 7, 2015 9:33:10 GMT -5
I have been PC'ing many of my cast bullets for about 2 years now... Question, Before I got into PC I water quenched everything. Now if I read this thread correctly,, even though I water quenched my pure WW bullets, if I PC them in the oven for 20-30 minutes, it should drop the BHN to be a better performing bullets on deer & such? (I use all WFNPB in my 44's and 45')More mushroom effect and therefore better on game performance? If I put the bullet in the right spot of course.  Thanks BigBore44 |
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Post by hoover on Nov 7, 2015 10:00:43 GMT -5
BB44, Yep! It will drop it to around 10 bhn if air cooled.
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Post by sixshot on Nov 7, 2015 14:42:04 GMT -5
If you think your bullets are too soft after coming out of the toaster oven you can quickly water quench and gain some BHN. And in some cases it might be necessary, one that comes to mind is the 357 Maximum.
Dick
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dmize
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 2,834
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Post by dmize on Nov 8, 2015 23:00:43 GMT -5
Not wanting to start an argument here but how many kills & blood trails would you like me to show you. I guarantee it will be many , many dozens of kills with good blood trails. The only problem with the blood trails is very few will be over 10-15 yds in 50 years of killing with cast. Not hard cast but cast about 10-12 BHN 99% of the time. Probably haven't water quenched 300 lbs of alloy in those 50 years. One or two kills isn't a very good sample, but 150-175 will teach you something about placement & hardness. Dick Not going to get an argument from me. Only that you have about 45 years of casting experience on me and I used the term "hardcast",which is a word I despise almost as much as "boolits". Hardcast is about as specific to a shooter as snug is to a mechanic. It was messages with you that I figured out how to reliably make them softer. As I told Jeff several times,my whole thing with PC is that I can water drop WW,coat and bake and do whatever I want to with them. |
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Post by Markbo on Nov 29, 2015 15:36:37 GMT -5
Like Tank I find your knowledge of handguns and shooting so beyond mine you may take for granted what I don't understand. For instance: "Deep seated for COL=1.546". Crimp above front band."
Why? What benefit is this over crimping on the crimp groove?
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Post by Markbo on Nov 29, 2015 16:02:57 GMT -5
...To compare accuracy against the same bullets passed through size & lube, the two bullets must be shot head-to-head through the same guns on the same day. My guess is you start with an accurate conventionally cast bullet and end with an accurate PC bullet. Any difference in accuracy only the target can say. David Bradshaw.... And have you done this as yet? |
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Post by bradshaw on Nov 29, 2015 20:49:17 GMT -5
Markbo.... first DEEP SEATED at age 18, to crimp bullets swaged from pure lead in copper half jackets. There was no crimp groove. Accuracy wasn't impaired in the least.
With Hoover's .452" NEI 310, which weighs 330-335 grains with Tank's alloy and powder coat, deep seating over 10.5/HS-6 produces excellent accuracy at 100 yards, and the load is remarkably quiet, an endearing trait. We will see more words and photos on this very special bullet.
And, no, I have not tried this NEI 310 SWC plain base in any form other than Hoover's powder coat----thus annealed----state. I predict this is the magical combination. No Rocks & Dynamite pressure, concussion, or RECOIL. Just a quiet, meaty-bone round.
David Bradshaw
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