100 Yards & Iron Sights

[cmillard]

that's cooking along pretty fast. do you prefer 4227 over h-110?

[Lee Martin]

Feb 24, 2016 6:22:01 GMT -5 cmillard said:

that's cooking along pretty fast. do you prefer 4227 over h-110?

No real preference. My go-to was H110 until it became hard to find a few years back. IMR 4227 was available so I purchased three 8-pound jugs. I've been shooting it ever since.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com
"Chasing perfection five shots at a time"

[cmillard]

is 4227 a ball powder or stick?

[bradshaw]

millard.... IMR (Improved Military Rifle) and Hodgdon 4227 are stick powders, cut very short as to have the proportions of a drum. A single base powder.

Ball or spherical powders are little balls or flattened balls. A double base powder----having nitroglycerin.

Generally in a straight wall pistol case loaded to the same pressure Win 296/Hodgdon 110 (double base) produces more velocity for a given pressure than a stick or flake (single base) powder. Ball powders are dense; to observe this fact, throw a volume of stick powder and weigh it. Next, throw the same volume of ball powder and weigh it.

Many factors affect forcing cone erosion, HEAT and PRESSURE and TIME APPLIED being the most obvious. (Let us leave metallurgy out of the discussion and consider the same gun exposed to different powders.) I have long thought that the tiny hard grains of ball powder (296/H110) add an abrasive factor to BARREL FACE EROSION, and likewise believe ball powders burn out the flash hider on a .223 rifle faster than stick powder. But I haven't proven it. Barrels on a number of my revolvers have been set back to correct for BARREL FACE EROSION, with Hercules/Alliant, IMR/Hodgdon 4227, and Win 296/H 110 all contributing, and without me ever conducting a specific round-count experiment.

This much is certain: high volumes of slow powder loaded to high pressure amplify the TIME APPLIED factor to erosion. Think oxy-acetylene torch. By backing off a full house load just a taste, the reduction in pressure and heat exposure reduces barrel face erosion. (Since, going back decades, I am the main instigator in the discussion of FORCING CONE EROSION, permit me to clarify the jargon. When we say ""forcing cone erosion," usually we mean BARREL FACE EROSION. Since it is the barrel face which hot gasses eat at, by lathe cutting one thread of steel from the BARREL SHOULDER and BARREL FACE we set back the barrel enough to present a clean ring of steel to the CYLINDER FACE.

Thus "forcing cone erosion" usually refers to BARREL FACE EROSION. Which is not to say that CONE EROSION does not occur. Literal erosion of the cone is much more rare and ,ay be attributable to an especially hot powder. I should have started with the term "barrel face erosion" years ago.
David Bradshaw

[cmillard]

I looked on imr sight before I asked and the site didn't say what it was. Since it is stick, I wouldn't mind trying some next time I buy powder. Thanks for the explanation

[paul105]

Regarding barrel face erosion -- here are a couple of pictures. David, is this what you are talking about? Thanks.
.
First, S&W 329 PD Ti/Sc .44 Mag (2,700 rounds if memory serves of mostly 240-260gr CSWCs over 18.0gr A2400). Missing gas shield/top strap erosion different topic.
.

.
Freedom Arms M757 .475 Linebaugh (over 12,000 rounds when picture taken). Mostly HS6, A2400, H110 with 355 thru 420gr at 1,150 (mostly) thur 1,300 fps. Probably 75% HS6, 20%+ A2400 and less than 5% full house H110. What appears to be top strap erosion is only tool marks.
.

.
Paul

[Lee Martin]

Last weekend I put 200 rounds through this 480 Bisley. One hundred got 12.0 of HS6, the other half 19.0 of H110. All were capped with a 445 gr LFN out of linotype.



445 gr Martin LFN



Alterations include a 0.390” Sixshot front blade, Bowen target rear, and a 2 lb trigger. Initial sighting in was at 50 yards and the groups were OK. Illustrated:



Moving to 100 yards, and up on the rear sight, it stayed respectable. Usually I could land 3 or 4 on the plate (definitely more 3’s than 4’s). Here’s my best target along with the load:

5-shots, 100 yards bench rested
.480 Ruger Bisley
Bullet - 445 gr Martin LFN
Powder – 12.0 gr HS6
Brass - Starline
Primer - CCI 350
Velocity – TBD



The LFN in my homebuilt Linebaugh and 475 BFR has done <2” at 50 and 3 – 4” at 100. Suffice it to say, this 480 is an average shooter.

Tripod update – last year I started using a Bald Eagle rest with the drift cable removed. Hold consistency feels better and I’ve eliminated some vertical.





A piece of leather is laid on top to protect the bag and adjustable upper (the leather isn’t shown here). I pin the frame’s front edge to the hide, float the backstrap, and place my wrist on the elevation screw. What you don’t see is the leather supporting the sides of the frame. Also, due to the picture angle the grip looks closer to the screw than it actually is.



So here we are a year into the challenge. And besides me, only two others have tried this with a custom. Plenty of fine shooting from stock revolvers and autos. But $3,000+ works of art? Zilch. And that’s odd because this forum attracts a lot of them; not to mention their picture reposts. Much effort has gone into the hi-jack thread (aka SA.com tweets) and random photos. Just maybe we could divert some of that energy to 100 yards, iron sights, and beloved handguns.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com
"Chasing perfection five shots at a time"

[cmh]

That later part sounds like a call to arms gentlemen.....

[nockhunter]

Mar 15, 2016 20:40:28 GMT -5 cmh said:

That later part sounds like a call to arms gentlemen.....

 I'll be back out there soon,,,,,,,,,  having too much fun chasing steelhead!

Mike

[bradshaw]

paul105.... those forcing cones are barely seasoned. You're a long way to needing a set-back. When a revolver that has never spit before starts to spit, look for two things: 1) carry-up (timing), and 2) forcing cone erosion.

There is a third gremlin. Due to an oversize forcing cone which destroys accuracy, a revolver which starts its shooting career with poor chamber-to-bore alignment, may not spit. Eventually, erosion turns it into a spitter.

Before a few members glow purple from hanging fever, know this: spitting may also be due to oversize throats, rough throats, cylinder float in Model 29's and some big frame Dan Wessons, particularly .44's, and throats which are tight and rough.
David Bradshaw

[lscg]

Mar 15, 2016 19:30:54 GMT -5 Lee Martin said:

nice shooting Lee, and I have to agree with you. I like joking around as much as the next guy but the reason I like this forum so much is because of the threads and people I've been able to learn from.  that's what keeps me logging back on.

[cmillard]

lee, as always, nice shooting and fine looking revolver and bullets! hopefully here in the near future I can get the .45 bisley out at 100 yards. not going to with the .41 accusport as the throats are way undersized. actually, maybe it would be a good idea to give it a try--before and after. it may be a waste of time as I can not find a load that shoots under 3-4 inches at 25 yards since the throats are undersized.

[Alaskan454]

I suppose I've only done the challenge once, time to wring out the new 480 at a more respectable distance.

[Snyd]

Mar 15, 2016 19:30:54 GMT -5 Lee Martin said:

So here we are a year into the challenge. And besides me, only two others have tried this with a custom. Plenty of fine shooting from stock revolvers and autos. But $3,000+ works of art? Zilch. And that’s odd because this forum attracts a lot of them; not to mention their picture reposts. Much effort has gone into the hi-jack thread (aka SA.com tweets) and random photos. Just maybe we could divert some of that energy to 100 yards, iron sights, and beloved handguns.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com
"Chasing perfection five shots at a time"

Well I've spent the last couple months off and on (weather permitting) getting to know the "new to me" 500L, both gun and cartridge. Different loads, bench shooting, off hand shooting, managing recoil, consistent firm grip, etc. Last week I shot at 12" steel off hand at 40ish yds with a few different loads. Topped with the 540gr at 1100ish. I'll keep working my way out see if I can hit it at 100, work on sight picture, etc. One of these days I'll post my results. Thanks for the challenge!

[paul480]

Mar 15, 2016 19:30:54 GMT -5 Lee Martin said:

Last weekend I put 200 rounds through this 480 Bisley. One hundred got 12.0 of HS6, the other half 19.0 of H110. All were capped with a 445 gr LFN out of linotype.


445 gr Martin LFN


Alterations include a 0.390” Sixshot front blade, Bowen target rear, and a 2 lb trigger. Initial sighting in was at 50 yards and the groups were OK. Illustrated:


Moving to 100 yards, and up on the rear sight, it stayed respectable. Usually I could land 3 or 4 on the plate (definitely more 3’s than 4’s). Here’s my best target along with the load:

5-shots, 100 yards bench rested
.480 Ruger Bisley
Bullet - 445 gr Martin LFN
Powder – 12.0 gr HS6
Brass - Starline
Primer - CCI 350
Velocity – TBD

The LFN in my homebuilt Linebaugh and 475 BFR has done <2” at 50 and 3 – 4” at 100. Suffice it to say, this 480 is an average shooter.

Tripod update – last year I started using a Bald Eagle rest with the drift cable removed. Hold consistency feels better and I’ve eliminated some vertical.


A piece of leather is laid on top to protect the bag and adjustable upper (the leather isn’t shown here). I pin the frame’s front edge to the hide, float the backstrap, and place my wrist on the elevation screw. What you don’t see is the leather supporting the sides of the frame. Also, due to the picture angle the grip looks closer to the screw than it actually is.


So here we are a year into the challenge. And besides me, only two others have tried this with a custom. Plenty of fine shooting from stock revolvers and autos. But $3,000+ works of art? Zilch. And that’s odd because this forum attracts a lot of them; not to mention their picture reposts. Much effort has gone into the hi-jack thread (aka SA.com tweets) and random photos. Just maybe we could divert some of that energy to 100 yards, iron sights, and beloved handguns.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com
"Chasing perfection five shots at a time"

Hi Lee, I'm glad you also tried 19 gr. of H110...I'd be very interested to know how that performed for you in terms of accuracy in the .480 Bisley at 100 yards and what the velocity achieved was, if available.

As far as the accuracy obtained with 12 gr. of HS6, it is very much likely that increasing the powder charge a bit, say to 12.5-13 gr. of HS6 (and thus velocity) will tighten up your groups, but I'd be very careful about pressure ... I have no idea how high it would rise in the .480 with your 445 gr. bullet, and I'd definitely not use mag primers in this instance. Regardless of the powder charge used, I would also experiment with non-mag primers, such as Fed 150's and CCI 300's (only with HS6, not H110), that too might account for a bit or even quite a bit of improvement in accuracy.
It would also be very interesting to know what velocity was achieved with 12 gr. of HS6 behind your 445 gr. bullet, once you get to it, if you ever will.

Thanks again!

Paul