Cast Bullets and the 357 Maximum

[cw748]

First thing: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to All.



I’ve been shooting 180 TMJ over 17.5gr of 4227 out of a Ruger NM Blackhawk with 7.5 inch barrel and I am very pleased with the results, very accurate at 100 and 200 yds. However, I would like to load some heavy cast bullets, 180gr, and load these to lower velocity and pressures. This revolver is so much fun to shoot I need to get it out more often. At what velocity do I need to use plain base or GC bullets? I load cast bullets in my 03A3 and use both plain base and gas checked depending upon velocity.



I know I can shoot 357 Magnum in this gun to tame it down, but why. The look on someone’s face when you start loading 2 inch long cartridges is priceless.



The only pistol powders I have are Unique and 4227. I would like to load some slow loads with plain base bullets and a load spiced up for the gas checks. If I need to find different powder I will. I plan to use 180gr (.358) bullets. None of my current manuals list loads for the MAX using lead bullets.



Thanks for any and all info.



CW

[AxeHandle]

Zeus gave me this MiHec mold for my 357Max a while back.. Haven't made any bullets with it yet. Seems like it is suppost to throw a 180GC.  I'll get around to casting a few and shooting them soon.  I have a Harton tuned max that 2 dawgs gave me that NEEDs them....
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[bradshaw]

cw748.... the Speer 180 and 200 Total Metal Jacket bullets are indeed accurate. While the 180 TMJ over 17.5/4227 is light for the .357 Maximum, you are correct to go by accuracy. Powders which produce accuracy with velocity in the .357 Maximum----and which cannot be double-charged----include 2400, 4227 296, H110, Win 680 and Accurate 1680. It would be very easy to double charge Unique. In all the loading I've done with the Maximum, I avoided fast and medium burn powders. And I never got into trouble. I just don't see a curiosity to have a ton of airspace in a long case. We obtained fine accuracy from .357 magnum, and even .38 Special, in the Maximum.

The .357 Maximum is a high performance cartridge capable of fine accuracy in the low-magnum to high-magnum pressure band. With a 180 or 200 grain cast bullet you might as well go for one which offers some resistance when finger-pressed through the chamber throats. Hopefully, it will still be firm in the grooves.

The Ruger Maximum was made in Southport with barrels from George Wilson, also of Connecticut. Eight grooves buttoned, 1:16" twist. (Dan Wesson M40 Super Mag started with 1:14", then 1:16", both of which I consider vastly more interesting than the late-stage 1:18-3/4" twist. Twist is far less important with the blunt bullets you hint at, than other dimensional features, or dimensional combinations.

The Ruger Maximum is an incredibly strong revolver. But the wrong powder (inappropriate application) doesn't care how incredibly strong a gun is. One of the most important lessons a handloader must learn is that fast powder does not automatically equal fast velocity, but fast powder always equals fast pressure. Velocity, particularly pushing weight, must allow for acceleration.
David Bradshaw

[cw748]

David. Thanks for the response. If I stick with the 4227 which cast bullet would you recommend, 180 gr gas checked, or plain based. Where is the line drawn as far as velocity goes when using cast in a revolver? I use plain base bullets in my rifle under 1500 fps and gas checks over 1600 fps. I now have a source for 1680 so may give that a go also.

CW

[sixshot]

If you plan on getting the most out of your 357 Maxie with a cast bullet you will definitely want to go with a GC slug. Mine sang like Frank Sinatra with 2400 or 4227 & a 180 gr GC cast slug & yours will too. A couple of muley bucks hated mine.

Dick

[cw748]

sixshot...thanks for the input.  What velocity are you running the 180 at?  I try to find the sweet spot for accuracy rather than barn burning velocity.

CW

[contender]

I have a few molds for my Maxi as well. Listen hard to what David & sixshot say,,, it's the voice of experience.
I have a soft spot for the maxis. So, every time David posts info on them, I glean a little more about them. It always makes me smile. (And I understand the "wow" factor when you pull out a Maxi round & say, "try MY 357!")

[sixshot]

We are in Arizona for the winter & I can't remember my load with the 180 gr GC but David Bradshaw or Glenn Fryxell know this caliber inside & out.

Dick

[bradshaw]

AxeHandle.... a fine looking mold and Ruger Maximum. I'd unlimber that baby for Christmas, blow the soot out your chimney. Maybe Santa'll slide down with a bag of gunpowder for them bullets you're about to cast and provide your Maximum a Happy New Year.

CW.... I believe Dick steers you straight on powder happiness with cast, notably 2400 and, mainly, IMR 4227 and Hodgdon 4227. Remember to use small rifle primers. I favor Remington in Remington brass. On that note, permit me to defer to others more experienced with cast in the .357 Maximum. I'm all ears.

Note the fuels suggested for the Maximum. For instance, Herculers and Alliant Blue Dot, which is slower than your mentioned Unique, ostensible with a profile approaching 2400, nevertheless exhibits an excitement potential which would keep me away from it in the Maximum. That's on the faster end.

On the slow end, IMR 4198, compressed under the Speer 200 TMJ, wrote a revolver record. And while extreme spread was tight, velocity was slow, with acceleration slower. Curmudgeon recently complimented Lee Martin's marksmanship with a reference to FOLLOW THROUGH. My Speer 200 TMJ/4198 load printed tight as a coffee cup at 200 meters, yet required the follow through of a dead man to achieve. Apparently I was that dead man when it mattered, for later shooting with regular nerves had me throwing corkscrews, as testified by my spotter, said consternation the epic consequence of LONG BARREL TIME. To put it country simple, long barrel time provides the slightest nerve twitch----failure to follow through----to tip the bullet as it exits the muzzle.

Check out the worthies on this forum who kill game regular with the .357 Maximum airmailing hot lead.
David Bradshaw

[bradshaw]

Thanks Dick, and may health abide this season and continue on. The 20 grain zone for 4227 defines an unstressed, accurate, rpm range for 180 to 200 grain cast bullets.

There may be newer propellants perfectly suitable for the .357 Maximum, but those we've highlighted in this thread are thoroughly proved from tournament to the Big Woods.
David Bradshaw

[okiehoosier]

Check out these loads...
www.lasc.us/Fryxell357Max.htm

[cw748]

okiehoosier… thanks for the link. Very informative and a bit confusing at the same time. Now I just need to order GC bullets and see if they will be as accurate as the jacketed I now shoot.



David.. I had some 158 RNFP cast .357 diameter I load in 357 mag so I pulled the cylinder and that .357 dia went through the chamber area with “some resistance when finger-pressed through the chamber throats”. So finding 180 .357 dia is my next goal.



To everyone else that replied with information, advise or whatever else… Thank you all.



CW

[bradshaw]

The article on the .357 Maximum for the Los Angeles Silhouette Club by Glen E. Frywell presents excellent data for the handloader and all handloading revolver shooters regardless of cartridge.

However, the history is flawed, and I am partially to blame, as I allowed an ego told hold forth against my better judgement. This allowed for a corruption of provenance, of origin and development. The .357 Maximum is first and foremost the development of William B. Ruger, Jr. Bill Ruger put his son in charge of the program and liaison with Remington on ammunition development. Bill Ruger senior and junior invited my participation, with the understanding that aspects of development would relate directly to my shooting the revolver at 100 and 200 yards and meters.

Had I never mentioned the .357 Maximum to Elgin T. Gates, revolver and ammunition would have entered production without Elgin knowing about it until press release and the term "Super Mag" never heard. Alas, somewhere into development, I informed Elgin of Ruger's .357 Maximum, and suddenly Elgin Gates had developed the ".357 Super Mag." Strangely, in all my discussions of cartridges with Elgin, with his describing many cartridges he'd developed, formed brass for, had reamers made for, barrels chambered for and so forth, he never mentioned a "super mag." Gates description of "heli-arcing sectioned .357 mag cases to make .357 Super Mag brass" doesn't hold up, and I should have checked closer before repeating his assertion. Nor did Elgin ever show me a sectioned case, barrel, reamer or other evidence of having thought of or made a "super mag."

Ironically, Federal Cartridge got involved in developing prototype ammunition because I told Federal's Hugh Reed that Remington was slow on shipping experimental ammunition, and as the .357 Maximum was to be a SAAMI cartridge, my handloads wouldn't replace the need for factory rounds in development. Elgin leaned on Bill Horn at Federal to get involved with brass headstamped ".357 Super Mag." Horn put High Reed in charge. I told Reed we need factory experimental ammunition, not brass, as I have plenty from shooting the Remington. As Reed and I discussed ammunition, I said "We need 180 and 200 grain bullets." Reed said, "We'll start with available bullets." The first Federal experimental ammo arrived headstamped "357 Super Magnum" and was loaded with the Sierra .357 170 FMJ, a very accurate bullet particularly popular with Python shooting silhouetters (no more so than with Python ace Jerry Moran). Federal experimental brass had a nickel plated case 1.545" long. By that time, Remington had settled on Ruger's 1.605" case. Hugh Reed also said that Federal would not step on the toes of Remington, as the .357 Maximum was a Ruger-Remington collaboration. Hugh Reed must be given credit for following through on my insistence of heavier bullets in production. Reed pushed development of Federal's .357 180 JHP, which was released in Federal's SAAMI .357 Maximum. Soon thereafter, Federal released a .357 Magnum with 180 JHP, code "357G."

Elgin Gates went on to name the .375 Super Mag, .445 SM, and .414 SM. I got the feeling that his .445 Super Mag was Elgin's answer to Dick Casull's .454, with expedience a criteria. Dick Casull took his sweet time developing his .454 Casull----around which he had to build a revolver----and from long range marksmanship to hunting the result shows. On cylinder gap alone, the Dan Wesson .445 SM cannot approach the Freedom Arms .454 Casull.

In counterpoint to vilification of the .357 Maximum in the popular press, Ruger's .357 Maximum is proven at the highest level of competition, as well as afield.
David Bradshaw

[cw748]

After a couple hours of searching numerous cast bullet sites I was able to find 200 gr WFN LBT GC sized at .357. The bullets are on the way so load testing begins next week. I also ordered some PB 180 gr RNFP, sized .357, to load for my 357 MAG. Any hints as to power charges for the 200 and the 180?



CW

[bradshaw]

Glen Fryxell's article distinguishes between wide meplat for close range impact versus long range stability. Dynamic balance must be maintained for long range stability, and as we've discussed on this forum, stability is achieved by separating Center of Form from Center of Gravity. Frywell notes velocity loss at extended range with a very wide meplat. I would add muzzle velocity to that factor, as the faster a bullet is pushed, the greater the wind resistance. A slow bullet with a low ballistic coefficient sheds velocity slowly. The .357 Maximum runs very comfortably in the 1300 to 1700 fps range, and I would think that a very wide meplat might run straight, longer, at the lower end. But I haven't tried it. I achieved rather astounding accuracy from 200 grainers as low as 1200 fps----silhouette accuracy to the bone----but I wouldn't trust the bullet to be a workhorse on game. Both cast and jacketed----including .358 rifle bullets----exhibit fine accuracy at lower as well as high velocity.

As JWP and SIXSHOT have proven in the field and correctly note, bullet profile writes its own law on game. To theirs I add this separate note correlating bullet softness and bullet hardness as relates to both game and steel:
* Soft lead delivers HEAVY punch----providing it penetrates.
* Hard brittle lead may fragment on bone, and it may powder on steel, with dwell insufficient to push over the silhouette.

The .357 Maximum was made for meat & steel. A bullet that punches long and shoots straight is a good thing.
David Bradshaw