hammer
.30 Stingray
Posts: 233
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Post by hammer on Jul 31, 2009 7:09:27 GMT -5
Have finished re-reading Elmer Keith's The Last Word.
Paid attention to his issues with the conventional Colt SAA.
While it was not a 44 Special and the grip shape was not that of the #5, how close did the 1950s Ruger Blackhawk come to addressing Keith's gun design issues ?
With the barrel length shortened, how close did the 1950s Ruger 44 come to addressing Keith's 1929 issues ?
If S&W had not introduced the 44 Magnum in their double action revolver... but Ruger had the 44 Magnum in their Flattop with a 5 1/2 inch barrel... Would Elmer Keith have adopted the Ruger Flattop as his daily carry ?
With custom grips, of course.
Am sure this has been addressed before, but can't find the thread or chapter. .
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Post by Ken O'Neill on Jul 31, 2009 7:29:05 GMT -5
Other than having adjustable sights, it didn't come close at all. In my opinion, no. He'd have stayed with his 4" Smith .44 Spec. and heavy loads, and continued to lobby for changes. It had already been his daily carry gun for years. For whatever such speculation is worth....
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Post by Flatlander on Jul 31, 2009 7:50:28 GMT -5
The answer changes somewhat, though, with the introduction of the Super Blackhawk ... wouldn't you say, Ken?
Not insofar as whether Keith would have adopted the single action as his daily gun - I too think he would have stuck with the 4" Smith - but I believe the Super Blackhawk came pretty close to being the optimal single action for him.
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Post by Lee Martin on Jul 31, 2009 8:09:00 GMT -5
I'll have to re-read that section of Sixguns, but Keith liked the coil spring and firing pin on the Blackhawk. Didn't like the basepin and wished the hammer was lower (ie, closer to that of a Bisley). Can't remember what he said about the gripframe, but obviously he preferred the #5. Ironically, he stated it would only be a matter of time before the OM was offered in 44 Special and 45 Colt. Too bad it took 50+ years for the former and we never saw a mid-frame 45. -Lee www.singleactions.com
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Post by zeus on Jul 31, 2009 11:12:22 GMT -5
I thought I remembered that he really like the dragoon gripframe and lowered hammer spur on the Super. I think he requested it and it was done on the Super models. But, my memory isn't what it could be probably....I thought he was pretty fond of the Supers as being a great single action.
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Post by AxeHandle on Jul 31, 2009 11:29:52 GMT -5
Hmmmm Possibly a case of Shoulda... Coulda... Woulda... The best answer for hammer will be to return to the land of his kin and make a plan to shoot a few 44 bore guns like a Clements #5, a TLA #5, a OM FT 44, and a Colt NF side by side and make his own decision.... Heck since the TLA is a 44 Mag we could throw in a NM Bisley and a OM SBH... Guess I might need to have a OM FT 44 cut to 5.5 before he gets here... ;D
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Post by Ken O'Neill on Jul 31, 2009 20:45:10 GMT -5
Flatlander, Yes, you're certainly right that he did consider the "Ruger Dragoon" (the SBH...a name he detested) the "finest single action yet", but it was a long ways from the original Blackhawk and still bore no kinship to the the Number 5, other than having adjustable sights.
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hammer
.30 Stingray
Posts: 233
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Post by hammer on Jul 31, 2009 20:57:46 GMT -5
Sorry that I communicated the initial post poorly.
The issue is not, "Is the Ruger Blackhawk a Special #5 in design ?"
Obviously it is not.
The question is more to the shortcomings of the SAA that Keith spells out in his 1929 article and does the Ruger Blackhawk address these issues, though with different design features than incorporated in the Special #5 ?
Further, if Elmer Keith had had a Ruger Blackhawk in 44 Special or a Super Blackhawk in 44 Magnum in 1929 instead of a Colt SAA, would Keith have designed the Special #5 ?
.
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carl
.327 Meteor
Posts: 546
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Post by carl on Aug 1, 2009 7:32:42 GMT -5
IMHO, Keith does indeed mention that, for some folks, the SAA/Ruger XR-3 grip frame is lacking in comfort with powerful cartridges. Both Elmer and Herb Glass suggested to Bill Ruger that a grip frame along the lines of the Colt 2nd Model Dragoon would be much better. Herb even loaned WBR a trigger guard and backstrap. WBR then designed an investment cast, square backed trigger guard grip frame and had approximately 300 of them produced. He installed one on a Flattop .44 with, I believe, a 7-1/2" barrel and sent it to Keith for testing. During this period WBR also decided that the new grip design was a bit "too much" of a good thing and made a revision. The revised pattern is what's still in production to this day. So, what happened to those 300 "early Super Blackhawk" grip frames? They were randomly installed on the early Super Blackhawks and have become the very, very collectible "Long Frame Supers" we Collectors cherish.
JMHO,
Carl
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Post by Ken O'Neill on Aug 1, 2009 7:33:01 GMT -5
If the SBH had been available, in my opinion, no, he would not have.
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c.r.
.30 Stingray
"I mainly just know about possums."
Posts: 392
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Post by c.r. on Aug 1, 2009 9:57:42 GMT -5
They were randomly installed on the early Super Blackhawks and have become the very, very collectible "Long Frame Supers" we Collectors cherish. JMHO, Carl Now that is very interesting. I've seen the pics of the long frames on rugerforum and never thought to ask "why?" Thank you Sir, c.r.
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