David Bradshaw Photos - Vol. XV

[jayhawker]

Mr Bradshaw,
Fascinating!! Thanks.

[vonfatman]

Thank you Mr. Bradshaw. I enjoy reading your posts and learning about shooting and the many interesting people you have encountered.

Bob

[bradshaw]

Cmillard.... revolver accuracy requires balanced components and an excellent revolver. It is my impression that the higher the ballistic coefficient of the bullet, the the more sensitive it is to conditions of launch. The bullet must spin straight long after it's left the bore. The best revolver and powder cannot correct an out of balance bullet. Bench rest technique is not required to load accurate revolver ammunition. Consistency is required. Consistency includes culling brass with weak neck pull for practice, and saving firm neck grip for long range and hunting. An aggressive chamfer weakens crimp. Decent brass of a manufacturer and lot needn't be trimmed, leastwise not before numerous loadings. Flare case mouth just enough to start bullet straight without shaving. I prefer a roll crimp to a profile crimp on magnums. A seater plug that supports the ogive helps hold bullet straight Crushed primers and a punk mainspring may contribute to fliers or a broadened cone of dispersion.
David Bradshaw

[cmillard]

have you tried fast for caliber twist rates in barrel? how about heavy for caliber bullets--such as the 340 grain rimrock for that .44mag or the 405 grainer?

[jwp475]

Whitworth tested a 405 grain bullet in the 44 mag and the results are in his book. The test show the bullet to not totally stabilize and performance was as good as lighter bullets in penetration tests. Ross Seyfried came to the same conclusion when stuffing 400 grain bullets in the 454

[cmillard]

i think that that revolver had a factory 1-20 twist which is too slow. i think a 16 twist would have worked much better.

[jwp475]

Jun 18, 2013 10:04:19 GMT -5 cmillard said:

i think that that revolver had a factory 1-20 twist which is too slow. i think a 16 twist would have worked much better.

I really don't think so. Even if one got them to work I fail to see an advantage since a 320 grain give tons of penetration out penetrating cup and core rifle bullets by a wide margin

[jwp475]

Dick Cassul and FA tested a wide range of twist rates and settled on a 1 in 24 twist rate. 360 grain is an outstanding weight in 454 and simply blows through and through buffalo why why one want or need a heavier bullet is my question

[bradshaw]

Standard .44 twist of 1:20" produces great accuracy with standard weight bullets, from low to high velocity. I went up and down in my twist rate preference in discussing the FA rebarrel with Jim Stroh. Ambivalence briefly delayed work. I settled on a Shilen barrel, which was available with 1:16. The revolver was an experiment to get a new barrel on the revolver and test a few ideas in the process. Naturally, I wanted it to come out right. Thinking back to the 1800's, one must conclude that the search for revolver accuracy began with Sam Colt, and remained an important criteria for the next century---- well into the 1900's.

Were I to rebarrel again, I might go back to the traditional 1:20" twist so thoroughly proven by S&W and Ruger. The original FA .44 barrel had 1:24". There were occasions I felt I outshot the barrel. It was accurate enough to win some shootoffs, but it makes you ready for a straightjacket to feel a bullet on the edge, or outside, of your Point of Aim----and you didn't put it there. So of course I was suspicious of the 1:24" twist. A suspicion is not science and my hard answer concludes that----within a useable twist range----the interior of the bore is more important than twist. My Dan Wesson M44 VH8 shot drill hole accurate with the same loads, but I could no longer abide the gap necessary for free rotation with endshake. (DW .44 barrels were 1:18 or 1:20, I believe).

There should be no question the 1:16 twist will stabilize a bullet too long for 1:20. What the tipping point length or weight is, I don't know. Bill Ruger, Jr., had 10 barrels of varying twists fitted to SRM-2 during development of the .357 Maximum. Twist didn't become critical until I loaded long, heavy rifle bullets. Ruger settled upon the their standard .357 Blackhawk twist of 1:16. (Colt Python runs 1:14, as does the much later FA M83 .357; both very accurate. S&W .357 twist of 1:18-3/4" also shoots super accurate.)

While I haven't experience with super heavy revolver bullets, the issue of weigh and length (length generally determines twist) must be considered together. Why? To put it country simple, a super heavy revolver bullet risks putting Center of Gravity and Center of Form at the same point in the bullet. As we have discussed in another place on Lee's forum, coincidence of CoG with CoF destabilizes long range accuracy.

My surprise with the 1:16 twist came soon after Stroh completed the revolver in the late 1990's. Federal 44B 180 JHP grouped five in 4-inches at 200 yards. Velocity 1925 fps via Oehler 35P. Astounding accuracy for a 180 from so fast a twist. Such straight flight demands a perfectly uniform jacket and core. I suspect the 180 would shoot tighter with a slower twist.

To reiterate, twist is far less important to a low BC revolver bullet. Whereas, twist is critical to a high BC rifle bullet.
David Bradshaw

[jwp475]

I totally agree with David on this subject. The FA-83 454 has a 1 in 24 twist and they are very accurate with heavy bullets. I am not talking about super heavy bullet such a 400+ grainers



4 3/4" FA 83 with 335 grain WFN bullet in 45 Colt




FA and Dick Cassul experimented with multiple twist rates and settled on the 1 in 24. The WFN is not a long range bullet for the reasons that David explain but is an awesome hunting bullet out to 100 yards or a bit beyond

[cmillard]

well said. do you shoot much cast in your revolvers or is it mostly jacketed?

[jwp475]

I shoot both about equal I'd say

Anyone that wants to shoot super heavy bullets then go for it and have fun. If you think that you need more twist then re-barrel with the twist that you want and have fun. John Ross had S&W make a run of the X-frame in 500 S&W to shoot and stabilize the 700 grain hard cast in a 10 twist. This cause the gun to torque severely in the hand and makes accurate shooting difficult at best and impossible at worst depending on your ability to control the sever torque

[bradshaw]

Cmillard.... is this question aimed at me? Reckon so, as JWP throws mostly cast. The bullpipe Stroh-Freedom Arms has lived on jacketed, mainly the Sierra 240 JHC over 296/H110. It's about time I tried various cast. I am open to suggestion. Accuracy with punch at range is desirable.

A revolver capable of sub-inch groups may guild the lilly for hunting, yet there is nothing superfluous about a revolver that continues one's education. Sierra Bullets president Bob Hayden years ago told me that I pushed his bullets way beyond their testing. Should we call that quality we don't need? As have thousands of other revolver shooters, I appreciate that quality. Note 23.4 grains H110 propels the Sierra 240 JHC to 1580-1600 fps. Said efficiency is attributable to three conditions: Minimal cylinder/barrel gap; minimal forcing cone; minimal chamber exits (throats). One of these conditions----barrel/cylinder gap----is irrelevant to accuracy. The other two----forcing cone and throats----are critical to accuracy.

Somewhere I have a target of a popgun load: cast 240 SWC bevel base; 5.5/HP-38 (Wi, 231); std primer, .44 mag brass; deep seat to crimp above front band----COL 1.500". Five shots group 4-inches, perhaps a hair over, at 100 yards. This is a bullet intolerant of high base pressure, while accurate loaded light, with air space of a .44 Special. This load is accurate from any of my .44 magnums. Works clean for dropping livestock. While it wouldn't be my choice for hitching up to hunt deer, I can think of worse.
David Bradshaw

[jwp475]

David the Kieth semi wadcutter or the LBT LFN would be excellent long range cast bullets in the 44 mag with an alloy that produced a 22 to 24 brinnel hardness

[cmillard]

I had a 10.5 inch SBH in .44 mag that I shot a lot with 340 rimrocks and I want to say 19.3 grains of H-110. she sure was fun, but I sold it and moved up to bigger and better--BFR .500 JRH. I would like to see what I could do with a long barrel on that thing.