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Post by vonfatman on Mar 28, 2013 16:40:15 GMT -5
My buddy has a Ruger Scout and loves the rifle (.308). I've also shot the gun and liked it. Initially he sat it up with the scope mounted forward like most.
He and I did not like the configuration. He moved the scope back to the "normal" spot for a scope and we both shot the rifle better.
Just our opinions but we vote no on forward mounted scopes.
Bob
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Post by bradshaw on Mar 28, 2013 18:16:13 GMT -5
Joej.... Remington M6 pump 16.8" .308 carbine had a Redfield swing-over mount, which Ben Kilham milled to fit the Remington barrel. Leupold 2x IER scope, which Leupold made for mounting in front of the Winchester 1894 action. Return-to-zero was lousy with the Redfield swing-over.
I consider 2x maximum on an IER, as at high magnification the whole view blurs on a moving target in the woods. "Unity" magnification (1x) is better, which is the other reason (beside red dot) that red dot scopes are fast on moving targets. For higher magnification----2-1/2x or 2-3/4x, etc.----conventional scope placement is better.
I ditched the swing-over mount years ago. Installed a multi-slot Weaver rail, milled to the barrel. Leupold quick release rings allow scope detatchment for iron sight use. Someday I may go back to a conventional Leupold 1-4x or 1.5-5x, or even a 2-7x or 2.5-8x, as these provide sighting to the last legal light.
With unity magnification it doesn't matter whether the scope is close to the eye or IER; as long as the reticle is Country Simple, the eye reads the action. Magnification blurs action.
David Bradshaw
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Post by flyfisher66048 on Mar 28, 2013 20:22:14 GMT -5
I set up a Mauser 98 in 8mm with a forward mounted scope - don't like it.
Just to make sure I tried a marlin 336 with a forward mounted scope - still don't like it.
As said earlier, they are not as good in low light, have too much glare in some lighting conditions. For me they are not really faster than a normal scope. I will be mounting a normal scope on the marlin, but I'll keep the Mauser just because it is still pretty cool.
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Fowler
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 3,671
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Post by Fowler on Mar 28, 2013 23:49:02 GMT -5
I said Mossbergs rifle didn't have irons for backup, I was wrong. They just announced a MVP Patrol rifle, AR mag fed 223 with a 16.5" barrel, open sights, and the choice of a threaded barrel for a AR style flash hider or can. It's a bit goofy looking but might be a handy rifle especially when $500 will buy it in the real world when they hit the market.
Im intreagued if only it wasn't a Mossberg...
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Post by 2 Dogs on Mar 29, 2013 6:34:25 GMT -5
As I said, I think it is silly to mount the scope so far forward. If one looks at USPSA 3 gun, none of the top riflemen use a forward mounted scope and those guys are FAST on the trigger of thier rifles.
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robl
.375 Atomic
These were the good ole days!
Posts: 1,415
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Post by robl on Mar 29, 2013 10:42:11 GMT -5
Yeah, That Cooper, what did he know...
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Post by curmudgeon on Mar 29, 2013 12:25:47 GMT -5
I agree with Robl, the good Col knew what a Intermediate battle rifle needed.One may call it anything you want but don't be like the mass media amd call anything other than a sporting rifle an ASSAULT RIFLE, a scout rifle is a scout rifle as per the Col Specs or nearly so. IMNSHO
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Post by subsonic on Mar 29, 2013 17:30:36 GMT -5
My understanding of the forward mounted optic wasn't quite so much to do with efficient use and placement of the optic, but more for increased situational awareness and avoiding "tunnel vision" where someone can walk (run!) right up on you while you are looking through the scope.
That it allows for easy access to the action for loading/unloading/clearing jams etc, placing a rear peep sight, and makes for a handy place to carry the rifle - is just a bonus.
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Fowler
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 3,671
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Post by Fowler on Mar 30, 2013 10:06:42 GMT -5
I'm with Fermin in that it's not a "Scout" rifle but more of a truck rifle that is really more what I am looking for. A medium weight bolt action, box magazine fed rifle in a all around cartridge that is small enough to be fun to shoot, common enough to be affordable to shoot, but yet big enough to be leathal. I want back up irons for the gun, preferably with a peep sight for this job. Now how you ever get it so the peep and a conventional scope stay on a gun at the same time I have not sorted out yet, the quick release mounts for scopes these days work great but if there is a similar mount for a low peep sight suitable for a bolt gun I just don't know.
The rifle should be bomb tough, something that can be beat around behind the backseat of the truck for years and still shoot fine. No it doesn't need to be something that can snipe small game at 500 yards but it should be accurate and understood well enough to make life perilous for a bad guy out beyond that point if necessary. It needs to also be very usable for short fast shot when called, so the scope needs to adjust to low powers as well, a 2-7 seems to fit the job in my minds eye. The aimpoint style sights seem more suited to a AR cabine style weapon to me where speed probably trumps precision some.
It must have a good trigger, don't all guns really? It also should be light enough that it is not burdensome to carry around for a day.
I have to admit the more I list what I would want the rifle to be the more I keep going back to a 308 or 7mm/08 as perfect cartridges, I want it to be a .223 but the more I ponder it the more I see it is just not enough gun for the job at hand. My basic tendencies still say a 30/30 carbine would be suitable for the job and be classic as hell but it's inability to reach out limits it. I like lever guns but at the end of the day I was raised on bolt guns and they are the benchmark I keep going back to.
Perhaps after my AR is completed I will take a more serious look at this whole project as my light rifle needs will be filled...
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Post by sandhiller on Mar 30, 2013 13:02:12 GMT -5
I will weigh in on the subject from my limited point of view. I have owned a scout rifle made by gunsmith at gunsite. I was down there for a class about 22 years ago and bought it used off the rack there. It is a psuedo scout since it is built on a springfield action in 30-06 set up with a burris scope. Been a great all around rifle that will handle most of the things I do.
Absolute joy to carry in the field to the point I will accept some of its limitations as Bradshaw pointed out. Carrying it with my hand around the reciever at the balance point is nontaxing and alot like a 30-30. I carried my sniper rifle deer hunting on the plains one day and said screw it and pulled out the scout for the rest. Got tired packing the heavy rifle around and decided I would get closer or pass up a long shot if one presented its self. I dont think I would care for the extended magazine like the Ruger has for that carrying reason.
Its great in the mountains for the most part but lacking at times on the plains when opportunities to shoot can reach out there. Accuracy even with the low pwored optics, light barrel and my shooting ability has given me almost MOA quality all the time. Rifle is a shooter but I dont freak out on 1 1/2 groups from it since that will more than out shoot my ability or the optics. The three point sling (Ching) is a huge plus.
As for the foward mounted scope I just think of it as a better open sight, like a really big peep sight. With practice it can be quite fast but I dont know if I could beat some of my friends who are good with a conventional mounted scope though. I do think I could give them a run for their money at the close quick stuff against their high magnification. Sighting or focusing with my left eye while mounting the rifle to my check weld and then switching to my right generally has the crosshairs where the left eye was looking. The ability to access the action with nothing in the way is second hand to none. Would like to try a low powered variable scope (2x7 Leupold) to see if that would extend the range though but am not in a hurry to do so.
I think alot of times the scout rifle concept gets confused with someone looking for a specific mission to fill and this just doesnt work out alot of the time. For me its what I am going to grab for a walk about the ranch or mountains when I have no specific purpose in mind. It will handle 80% of what I need to do easily. I have sold and bought other rifles but this one will be kept till I give it to one of my boys.
I got to personally meet Cooper and look at his rifles at his house which was a great memory. Liked the way his house was set up too. The man definitly left his mark on the shooting world with some interesting ideas.
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Post by bradshaw on Mar 30, 2013 13:06:58 GMT -5
Fowler.... my Rem Model 6 pump carbine is what we call a "jump gun." Very fast, certainly faster than a bolt on the second shot. The Remington pump is not to be confused with the maker's semi-auto product, which hasn't a smidgeon the reliability and hot barrel accuracy of the pump. I'm not selling that design; my rifle inclination weights for bolt and semi-auto. Military type semi-auto, that is; one I can tear down with my hands and which keeps its ZERO cold to hot and does not jam.
To have a peep available with standard scope mounting, consider Brownells Weaver rail stock, milling a ramp on the back for the Williams Guide aperture sight.
If your hunting includes afternoon stands, the conventional scope beats the IER hands down.
David Bradshaw
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Post by subsonic on Mar 30, 2013 14:03:46 GMT -5
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Post by mellonhead on Mar 30, 2013 16:43:15 GMT -5
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Post by crazycarl on Mar 31, 2013 13:31:16 GMT -5
One problem I see in my situation with the IER scope is I am right handed and left eye dominant . I'm not sure if I would be able to shoot with both open or not... I'm the same. So cross-dominant, in fact, that I absolutely can not shoot long guns with both eyes open. If I close my left eye, place my right eye directly on the ocular, then open my left eye, all I can see is whatever's off to my left. Absolutely infuriating & convinced it is why I'm such a horrid shotgunner. If it can get airborne, it's safe from me. Then I tried a red-dot. Amazing. Both eyes open is no sweat. Great low light vis. In full dark (overcast, no moon), with just a cheap flashlight (hog hunting), I can see well enough to place accurate shots at 50yds. I might go to levergun hell for this, but after shooting this Guide Gun, I'm on the hunt for a .35 to cut down & throw a red-dot onnit.  |
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Post by 2 Dogs on Mar 31, 2013 13:41:15 GMT -5
Toby, what kind of rifle did you need your XS rear sight for?
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