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Post by hammerdown77 on Jul 18, 2012 15:04:16 GMT -5
You'd think by now FedEx or UPS would have sent out a memo to all their employees telling them what "machine parts" really means....
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Snyd
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Post by Snyd on Jul 18, 2012 17:55:11 GMT -5
...I retrieved my package and called around until I located a small licensee who accepted $20 over costs to send it USPS. After performing a sweet action job, the gunsmith/FFL shipped the firearm directly to me. Let me get this straight....So you gave the gun to an FFL, he put it on his book, shipped it to another FFL (the gunsmith) and the gunsmith shipped it back to you directly? If so, he broke the law. I was set to do the same thing, have my FFL friend mail it USPS for cost and have John Gallagher mail it back to me when done. But, the law does not allow that. John even told me he would have to ship it back to the FFL. Essentially your gunsmith/FFL transferred a gun with out doing a NICS check. Big no-no for an FFL.
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Post by hughree on Jul 18, 2012 18:11:23 GMT -5
No, he did not.
Nor did anyone involved in the process.
The sending FFL doesn't put it on his book. Ownership is NOT changing. He is simply mailing the firearm for the owner and makes that declaration on form PS 1508 - Statement By Shipper Of Firearms at the time he mails it.
Nor does the receiving gunsmith/FFL enter the firearm in his books as no transfer of ownership either to or from him takes place. The bound book tracks ownership and NOT possession. I am still the owner as correctly reflected on the 4473 signed at the time of purchase. Firearms returned after repair can be sent directly to the owner UNLESS the repair requires a new frame and, thus, a new serial number.
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Snyd
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Post by Snyd on Jul 18, 2012 19:24:53 GMT -5
I'm not so sure about that hughree. If a smith gets a gun to work on and keeps it overnight he is required to put it in his book. The book does not nesescarly denote ownership but rather possession.
The 4473 does not prove ownership either. It's NOT a gun registration form...at least at this point... I only shows that a NICS check has been done. You can buy a gun from an FFL as a gift for someone else but the NICS check is on you, not the one you "gift" it to.
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Post by hughree on Jul 18, 2012 20:10:35 GMT -5
I AM sure. I suggest you resolve your particular issue to your satisfaction.
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Snyd
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Post by Snyd on Jul 18, 2012 20:15:31 GMT -5
Here is some reading for you. It's not just about ownership, it's about possession. www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-15.pdfIf I give my gun to my FFL to "ship for repairs". He has "acquired" it and needs to record it. The receiving FFL also has to enter in his book that he acquired it from the shipping FFL, NOT the owner of the gun. If I want to get it back from the FFL who it was shipped too, it has to go back to an FFL and that FFL needs to do a NICS check on me cuz it's on his book. I had this conversation with my FFL and John Gallagher.
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Post by nolongcolt on Jul 18, 2012 20:17:57 GMT -5
When I recently sent my SBH to Ruger for a taller front sight, I had my dealer send it USPS for me and asked that it be returned to me to save a 30 mile round trip to my dealer. No go. The gun was sent back to my dealer from Ruger. Now that may just be Ruger's policy and I dont know what actions my dealer took upon receiving the gun from me and shipping it. I dont believe he did anything other than mail it.
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Post by tek4260 on Jul 18, 2012 20:25:28 GMT -5
I'm not so sure about that hughree. If a smith gets a gun to work on and keeps it overnight he is required to put it in his book. The book does not nesescarly denote ownership but rather possession. The 4473 does not prove ownership either. It's NOT a gun registration form...at least at this point... I only shows that a NICS check has been done. You can buy a gun from an FFL as a gift for someone else but the NICS check is on you, not the one you "gift" it to. And if you tell the dealer it is a gift, and he sells it to you, he has broke the law. Ask my friend who just got his ankle bracelet off after 15 months about it. Seems a wife can't buy her husband a gun for Christmas anymore. The have to get a gift certificate. Doesn't quite look as nice under the tree.....
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Snyd
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Post by Snyd on Jul 18, 2012 21:08:19 GMT -5
And if you tell the dealer it is a gift, and he sells it to you, he has broke the law. Ask my friend who just got his ankle bracelet off after 15 months about it. Seems a wife can't buy her husband a gun for Christmas anymore. The have to get a gift certificate. Doesn't quite look as nice under the tree..... Did they take that verbage off the back of the 4473? It's not a crime to buy a gun as a gift. It sounds like the dealer has some serious issues. One more reason to not have to deal with the feds if at all possible.... nolongcolt. What happened was your FFL "acquired" the gun, logged it in his book, then "shipped it for repair", Ruger logged it in to their book and then sent it back to the original FFL. I sent my Redhawk to Ruger via UPS a few years ago and they sent it back to me direct. Cuz us mere mortals are allowed to ship a gun for repair and the FFL/smith can send it back to us. If an FFL sends it to them, it's not being sent by you. Screwy system for us honest guys to have to deal with.
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edk
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Post by edk on Jul 18, 2012 22:14:52 GMT -5
When I recently sent my SBH to Ruger for a taller front sight, I had my dealer send it USPS for me and asked that it be returned to me to save a 30 mile round trip to my dealer. While I too must make a 30 mile trip, thankfully that lets me place a SBH directly into the hands of Ruger customer service! Ok, couldn't help myself... When I had Uberti issue me a call tag for a Cattleman last December, they told me to pull the cylinder before placing into the box. Upon arriving at UPS they slapped their pre-paid tag onto it and I noticed the rate was cheap and the description was firearm "parts". I didn't expect that. I am blessed with a local FFL who will ship at near USPS cost for those items going out of state. I have to stay on his good side!
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Post by tek4260 on Jul 18, 2012 22:21:51 GMT -5
If you knowingly sell a firearm to someone who is buying it for someone else, it is a straw buy according to the feds. I don't want to get into a pissing match by any means, I am just saying watch it when you deal with them and the grey areas. Of course the first question on the 4473........
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Post by hughree on Jul 18, 2012 22:36:16 GMT -5
Read the rules. Particularly exceptions to the requirement of a 4473.
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Post by bowana18 on Jul 19, 2012 18:28:29 GMT -5
The shipping of revolvers for repair is a real problem. UPS and FED EX will require you to overnight it and pay the steep fees that they charge. That requirement is not a Federal law but a policy that they created to reduce the losses that they experience when shipping firearms. The fewer days that the item in transit the fewer the chances are that it will go missing. An alternative is to take it to your FFL and have it shipped USPS, the insurance is higher but the freight is less. The FFL has to log it in his books from you and log it back in from the shop who did the repair when the work is complete. He will also have to log it back out to you in his books. If the gun is logged in as a repair then a 4473 is not required when you pick your revolver up. The fee he charges is to cover the time required to do the necessary paper work. Most of the shops that I deal with charge$20-$30. The problems that usually arise are from UPS, FED EX or USPS workers who do not know the rules . I have fought this battle more times than I care to remember. I have had manufacturers return guns that I sent in for repair directly back to the owner which is not the way it is supposed to work, however at that point it is their problem not mine. AS long as I logged the item in from the owner and out to the manufacture I am in the clear.
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Post by arokcrwlr on Jul 19, 2012 20:23:36 GMT -5
I think that clears it up - thanks John! BTW, are you ready for me to send you a base gun for that 500L octagon barrel you're holding for me?
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paulg
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Post by paulg on Jul 19, 2012 20:37:39 GMT -5
When I sent my CA Bulldog in for repair all that was required was a shipping label from Charter Arms. I taped it to a USPS flat rate box, installed the revolver, taped up the box and off it went. I received the revolver back in the same manner. Boge has the right idea, don't ask, don't tell. Myself, like the rest here, will be looking forward to seeing the finished revolver.
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