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Post by kings6 on Dec 17, 2010 12:56:35 GMT -5
Is it needed? Probably not but I think it is still a good example that some folks are still looking to use some creativity in their designs. Shoot, people probably thought Elmers' #5 gun was pretty frankensteinish at first but look at how the concept of a #5 gun doesn't even need explaining to this day, decades later.
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robl
.375 Atomic
These were the good ole days!
Posts: 1,415
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Post by robl on Dec 17, 2010 22:05:42 GMT -5
Believe it or not SASS is not the only or main reason to use a SA. I like the historical tie in back to Croft and King and Sedgely. I am sure the Germans will eat it up. They love all things western and they love gimmicks and mechanical in innovations.
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hoss
.327 Meteor
Posts: 716
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Post by hoss on Dec 20, 2010 15:24:26 GMT -5
Ya know, in an ejectorless 3" Storekeepers model? I'd have it Ivoried and engraved and carry it! Can't think of a better 44 special for totin!
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Post by jimmarch on Dec 20, 2010 16:51:37 GMT -5
The SOLE reason to keep this out of SASS is to make sure people have to buy guns specifically for SASS, and not have guns that are "usable" in both SASS and other roles.
That's it. Period.
I guess if the point is to keep the "riffraff" out who can't afford four dedicated SASS guns, then yeah, any such ban on this gun makes "sense".
To me, it's another example of elitist BS.
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Post by tas6691 on Dec 21, 2010 7:49:18 GMT -5
Elitist? How is it elitist to keep a gun out of a competition that violates the rules and qualifications of that competition?? So SASS not allowing me to use my S&W mdl 14 with single action only lock work is elitist also??? Its as much a period correct "old west gun" as that Uberti.....
"The SOLE reason to keep this out of SASS is to make sure people have to buy guns specifically for SASS,"
Err, emmm, well yeah!
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hoss
.327 Meteor
Posts: 716
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Post by hoss on Dec 21, 2010 16:36:24 GMT -5
I still say, as a sheriff/storekeepers model, I want one. With a 3" pipe and no ejector rod... great way to combine CCW with classic and pleasing lines.
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cubrock
.401 Bobcat
TLA fanatic and all around nice guy....
Posts: 2,835
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Post by cubrock on Dec 21, 2010 16:43:07 GMT -5
I still say, as a sheriff/storekeepers model, I want one. With a 3" pipe and no ejector rod... great way to combine CCW with classic and pleasing lines. I'd go for that.
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Post by nonpcnrarn on Dec 22, 2010 4:09:30 GMT -5
I don't know. If you could find a firearm that had that design before 1900 then you should be able to use it sooner or later. I remember when using a SBH hammer with a Vaquero was a no no. Now that they mixed modern with traditional and most classifications are based on age not the firearms. IIRC now Ruger has SASS New Vaqueros with SBH hammers. Rugers of any iteration were not around before 1900 yet they are allowed. The Marlins, Winchesters and 92 clones were not originally chambered in 45 Colt. Yet they are SASS legal. If they need membership bad enough they will sooner or later allow anything that looks "old timey western" in a holster. Heck, my Broomhandle Mauser was invented in 1898 and that model appeared in a John Wayne western. Weren't some prop guns in B westerns actually DA firearms made to look like single actions?
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Post by patdaddy on Dec 22, 2010 9:49:41 GMT -5
"Weren't some prop guns in B westerns actually DA firearms made to look like single actions? "
Now that you mention it, I believe the gun Walter Brennen uses is "Support Your Local Sherrif" was something like a S&W model 10 with an ejector rod housing screwed on.
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Post by jimmarch on Dec 22, 2010 12:13:06 GMT -5
The gun in question handles exactly like a standard Uberti for the purposes of SASS...which so far doesn't allow reloading under the clock in any circumstances for safety reasons (which I consider a huge mistake).
There is NO competitive advantage at all in using this over anything else in the Uberti catalog in SASS.
The mechanical "innards" of the gun are no more period-correct than a NewVaq, most especially not a NewVaq in 357Magnum as is very popular.
So again: the only reason to keep it out is to block guns that are potentially "dual use" outside of SASS.
As to the long-standing ban on the SBH/Montado hammers. I compared the "hammer reach" of my gun (early NewVaq357, sn just over 5,000 with an SBH hammer) to three pre-WW2 Colt SAAs, including one with a black powder frame and another positively IDed to 1913. In all cases the "hammer reach" between my gun and those old Colts was identical to within a millimeter, maybe two. Compared to a couple of 2nd and 3rd-gen Colts, those guns had a "hammer reach" (measured with the strongside thumb) of well over 1/4" more, which made a huge difference in cocking feel and matched how my gun used to handle before I dropped the SBH hammer in.
In other words, the moment I dropped an SBH hammer into my gun as the first mod I did in 2005, I made my gun functionally more "period correct" than a brand new Colt SAA bought today. And yet the Colt was legal, my gun wasn't.
Because so many other guns copied Colt's post-war ergonomics, SASS became a haven for bad gun handling, particularly the notoriously incorrect (on every level) off-hand-cocking technique when shooting two-handed. Mouse-phart loads that worked despite screwball techniques didn't help at all, nor has the ban on reloading under the clock. It all adds up to one thing: SASS is a place where real combat shooting skills with SA revolvers went to die.
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Post by tas6691 on Dec 22, 2010 13:38:50 GMT -5
jimmarch,
I am really not trying to argue, as we agree on far more than we disagree. I started when SASS was relatively new and the rules were few. However, as the member number rose, the number of new rules seemed to rise as well, as the number of categories, until pretty soon there seemed to be more categories than shooters present at any given match. The next thing ya know, all sorts of mechanical mods were OK, eg. short stroke kits etc...
I soon found myself involved in a shooting sport I no longer recognized and didnt particularly care for. Too many firearm mods allowed, too many silly rules, and far too many categories to shoot in equalled too much chaos for me, so I walked away.
Western 3 gun started to make some progress, seemed more realistic, but I dont know how well it ever caught on. I now prefer to just enjoy my cowboy guns on my own. SASS did motivate me to buy some guns I otherwise wouldnt have, and to enjoy shooting them for pleasures sake, even if I had no real "use" for them other than for fun. For that I am grateful, other than that I could rant about the wrong direction of SASS all day! LOL
If that Uberti speaks to someone...great, go for it. Personally, I dont care for it and never will. Sorry if I came off snippy in my earlier post, was meant directed at my disdain of SASS, not at anyone personally.
SASS is a place where real combat shooting skills with SA revolvers went to die.
Amen and preach on!!
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Post by nonpcnrarn on Dec 22, 2010 15:43:06 GMT -5
jimmarch, I am really not trying to argue, as we agree on far more than we disagree. I started when SASS was relatively new and the rules were few. However, as the member number rose, the number of new rules seemed to rise as well, as the number of categories, until pretty soon there seemed to be more categories than shooters present at any given match. The next thing ya know, all sorts of mechanical mods were OK, eg. short stroke kits etc... I soon found myself involved in a shooting sport I no longer recognized and didnt particularly care for. Too many firearm mods allowed, too many silly rules, and far too many categories to shoot in equalled too much chaos for me, so I walked away. Western 3 gun started to make some progress, seemed more realistic, but I dont know how well it ever caught on. I now prefer to just enjoy my cowboy guns on my own. SASS did motivate me to buy some guns I otherwise wouldnt have, and to enjoy shooting them for pleasures sake, even if I had no real "use" for them other than for fun. For that I am grateful, other than that I could rant about the wrong direction of SASS all day! LOL If that Uberti speaks to someone...great, go for it. Personally, I dont care for it and never will. Sorry if I came off snippy in my earlier post, was meant directed at my disdain of SASS, not at anyone personally. SASS is a place where real combat shooting skills with SA revolvers went to die.
Amen and preach on!! I'm still in the process of getting my battery of guns together to compete with. I will use SBH hammers on my New Vaqueros and shoot 255 gr bullets at 950 fps Gunfighter style. I don't care if I win anything. I will just be there to have fun. The gamers can have their mouse phart loads but I don't think a cowboy ever went into the mercantile and asked the shopkeeper if he could have a box of the weakest ammunition there is. A gun was a tool to defend, and feed one's self and their family. If one target practiced he or she used the same ammo that was going to be used for hunting or self defense. If someone has arthritis or some other reason why they need a less powerful round I don't begrudge them the use of weaker ammo. Unless the sport attracts younger people the general population will get older and may have medical reasons for weaker ammo. Like you I think shooting mouse phart loads for the sole purpose of getting a plaque or belt buckle a little rediculous. Mouse phart loads are like a poser putting training wheels on his Harley.
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Post by jimmarch on Dec 22, 2010 18:59:21 GMT -5
Only problem is, you'll need to run a different caliber in your levergun OR be damned careful about not mixing up ammo...because from an 18" or 20" or whatever barrel that load is going to seriously exceed 1,000fps and either damage the plates or (worse) ricochet at some healthy speeds.
This issue is what first drove mouse-phart loads.
An alternative is to load super-heavy bullets in the 300-325gr class at 700fps, re-create the recoil effects of a 250 @ 950fps, and then see if they stay under 1,000fps from your rifle. I think switching calibers on the long-gun will be a better answer and in all honesty, a levergun in 357Magnum is more useful outside of the SASS world than one in 45LC anyhow.
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Post by Boge Quinn on Dec 22, 2010 19:22:20 GMT -5
I think this is a pretty cool sixgun, and will probably have to have one. But I don't shoot CAS.
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Post by nonpcnrarn on Dec 22, 2010 21:21:57 GMT -5
Only problem is, you'll need to run a different caliber in your levergun OR be damned careful about not mixing up ammo...because from an 18" or 20" or whatever barrel that load is going to seriously exceed 1,000fps and either damage the plates or (worse) ricochet at some healthy speeds. This issue is what first drove mouse-phart loads. An alternative is to load super-heavy bullets in the 300-325gr class at 700fps, re-create the recoil effects of a 250 @ 950fps, and then see if they stay under 1,000fps from your rifle. I think switching calibers on the long-gun will be a better answer and in all honesty, a levergun in 357Magnum is more useful outside of the SASS world than one in 45LC anyhow. I checked the rule book and velocity max is 1400 fps for rifles and carbines so I would have to make sure 950 fps in a 4.6" NV doesn't translate to over 1400 fps in the carbine or rifle. I do have some (1900) Penn 230 gr truncated cone bullets that I could use. They were originally ordered for my 45 ACP Milspec but could do double duty. The tapered shape would lend itself to feeding through a levergun like a RNFP would. I think I can roll crimp into 12 BHN alloy without a canellure.
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