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Post by bradshaw on Apr 6, 2024 12:50:30 GMT -5
Mr. Bradshaw, what is your opinion on the safe production dates for colts to use smokeless powder in? You stated using smokeless loads in an 1897 colt, and I have an 1896 colt that has been in my family since it was bought new in St. Louis. I have never shot it as I do not currently possess 44-40 dies nor black powder. What says you about loading light smokeless loads for this gun?[/quote] ***** marlin35.... god question, for which I haven’t a measurable answer. After shooting that beautiful 1897 Colt, I decided a continuous diet of my load might prove too much for the old steel. Technically, black powder is an explosive, whereas smokeless powder is a propellant. Yet, the expansion ratio and pressures generated by black powder is less. My late friend and maestro TIG welder in Austin, Texas, made weldments to antique guns for a couple of America’s top revolver smiths. Looking at the parent steel under magnification, it amazes me----the fantastic machine work and gun making that was done in the 1800’s. Inclusions are to be found in old steels with really challenge welding skills. These same inclusions do not make steel stronger over time and probably increase exposure to fatigue. David Bradshaw
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Post by marlin35 on Apr 6, 2024 12:56:51 GMT -5
Mr. Bradshaw, what is your opinion on the safe production dates for colts to use smokeless powder in? You stated using smokeless loads in an 1897 colt, and I have an 1896 colt that has been in my family since it was bought new in St. Louis. I have never shot it as I do not currently possess 44-40 dies nor black powder. What says you about loading light smokeless loads for this gun? ***** marlin35.... god question, for which I haven’t a measurable answer. After shooting that beautiful 1897 Colt, I decided a continuous diet of my load might prove too much for the old steel. Technically, black powder is an explosive, whereas smokeless powder is a propellant. Yet, the expansion ratio and pressures generated by black powder is less. My late friend and maestro TIG welder in Austin, Texas, made weldments to antique guns for a couple of America’s top revolver smiths. Looking at the parent steel under magnification, it amazes me----the fantastic machine work and gun making that was done in the 1800’s. Inclusions are to be found in old steels with really challenge welding skills. These same inclusions do not make steel stronger over time and probably increase exposure to fatigue. David Bradshaw [/quote] I think part of the issue at hand, is that modern smokeless propellants differ greatly from the first smokeless propellants that colt would have certified their guns for, or not. I know that the period in question was a transitional period (black powder to smokeless) for colt, and that there are no clear cut easy answers here. Thank you for taking time to give me your two cents.
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Post by revolvercranker on Apr 6, 2024 13:23:28 GMT -5
Mr. Bradshaw not to argue with you, but for information. Let's say you're shooting a BP load in a revolver and you get 1000 fps muzzle velocity. So say if you load smokeless and it gets slightly less muzzle velocity, which has less pressure? My understanding is pressure=velocity. More pressure more velocity. I understand the pressure developes differently between BP and smokeless.
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Post by marlin35 on Apr 6, 2024 13:56:39 GMT -5
Mr. Bradshaw not to argue with you, but for information. Let's say you're shooting a BP load in a revolver and you get 1000 fps muzzle velocity. So say if you load smokeless and it gets slightly less muzzle velocity, which has less pressure? My understanding is pressure=velocity. More pressure more velocity. I understand the pressure developes differently between BP and smokeless. My understanding is that the issue with smokeless isn’t necessarily the amount of pressure, but how it builds pressure and when in relation to the chain of events. Such as BP may be a bell curve, whereas smokeless presents a “spike” in pressure all at once.
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Post by bradshaw on Apr 6, 2024 14:15:16 GMT -5
Mr. Bradshaw not to argue with you, but for information. Let's say you're shooting a BP load in a revolver and you get 1000 fps muzzle velocity. So say if you load smokeless and it gets slightly less muzzle velocity, which has less pressure? My understanding is pressure=velocity. More pressure more velocity. I understand the pressure developes differently between BP and smokeless. ***** I would love to visually watch smokeless propellant, black powder, and high explosives combust in ultra-slow motion. Short of that, I’d appreciate a lab tutorial on the heat and detonative decomposing of solid and liquid chemistries into gas; to watch TTP (Time to Pressure), with simultaneous displacement of Material at Rest (whether it be bullet, rock, steel, or water). I expect much of the mathematic information is available, and that very little visual info has been developed. Having used some early SEMI-SMOKELESS powder, and blown up a black powder mortar with semi-smokeless, provides the impression smokeless powder continues to expand long after black powder finds atmospheric equilibrium. That continuing expansion of smokeless suggests, at least to this shooter, that PRESSURE TIME translates to Work on Target. This is easily demonstrated with HE (High Explosives). Also readily demonstrated through handloading. Piezo pressure equipment would be the way correlate black and smokeless characteristics. Meanwhile, back in the Handload Jungle, I would feel better loading antiques with black powder or Pyrodex. And, I would call Hodgdon Powder and listen. David Bradshaw
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Post by bigbrowndog on Apr 6, 2024 15:15:44 GMT -5
It kind of reminds me of a question a physics professor asked in class once. He asked how much pressure does it take to pierce human skin. He was looking for a flat answer and did not like my response. It depends!!! My answer was based on the surface area of the object doing the piercing, he was not taking that into consideration. Mainly because the subject at the time was golf balls, but his question did not contain all the necessary specifics. A needle can penetrate skin easily with little pressure, that same needle blunted takes considerably more, All things are rarely if ever equal. To assume things like pressure=velocity is not a safe thing to do. What first jumps to my mind is projectile construction and bore condition.
Trapr
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Post by revolvercranker on Apr 6, 2024 17:01:09 GMT -5
Mr. Bradshaw not to argue with you, but for information. Let's say you're shooting a BP load in a revolver and you get 1000 fps muzzle velocity. So say if you load smokeless and it gets slightly less muzzle velocity, which has less pressure? My understanding is pressure=velocity. More pressure more velocity. I understand the pressure developes differently between BP and smokeless. ***** I would love to visually watch smokeless propellant, black powder, and high explosives combust in ultra-slow motion. Short of that, I’d appreciate a lab tutorial on the heat and detonative decomposing of solid and liquid chemistries into gas; to watch TTP (Time to Pressure), with simultaneous displacement of Material at Rest (whether it be bullet, rock, steel, or water). I expect much of the mathematic information is available, and that very little visual info has been developed. Having used some early SEMI-SMOKELESS powder, and blown up a black powder mortar with semi-smokeless, provides the impression smokeless powder continues to expand long after black powder finds atmospheric equilibrium. That continuing expansion of smokeless suggests, at least to this shooter, that PRESSURE TIME translates to Work on Target. This is easily demonstrated with HE (High Explosives). Also readily demonstrated through handloading. Piezo pressure equipment would be the way correlate black and smokeless characteristics. Meanwhile, back in the Handload Jungle, I would feel better loading antiques with black powder or Pyrodex. And, I would call Hodgdon Powder and listen. David Bradshaw Mr Bradshaw good post. David you really should try some Triple Seven. Here's what I have found. Pyrodex is extremely corrosive and extremely hot. I was shooting it 30 years ago in my ROA. Now get this, it cut a groove in my top strap and also burned a pit in my hammer face. I sent pics of it to Hodgdon and they basically blew me off and said to call Ruger. I did not waste my time calling Ruger as it was my firm opinion it wasn't Ruger's fault. So I went back to BP, but then 777 came out. I've been shooting it since. One can't believe what you read on the internet, but He claimed to be shooting 777 in a blued cap n ball replica and deliberately didn't clean and let it set for 9 days. He said not corrosion or rust. Well I did the same thing with my stainless ROA, but let it set 3 weeks. Absolutely nothing, not even in the bore or cylinders. Not good enough I shot my 1860 blue Pietta cap n bad and let it set a long time. Now it's been setting in the safe for six months and just looked it yesterday and nothing! 777 also cleans out of your barrel super easy inaddition to it leaving no fouling. What's there is like light grey ash. I my ROA a can easily push a 200 grain SWC for the 45acp to 1200 fps. In my Pietta I have pushed a round ball to 1100 fps, then I cut it down a wee bit in power as it had too much bark n bite. Hodgdon told me once to reduce 777 to a 70% charge in comparison to Pyrodex. The remainder of my Pyrodex have been relegated to bad boy things, you know what I mean. Tony
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Post by bigbore5 on Apr 6, 2024 20:22:33 GMT -5
Mr. Bradshaw not to argue with you, but for information. Let's say you're shooting a BP load in a revolver and you get 1000 fps muzzle velocity. So say if you load smokeless and it gets slightly less muzzle velocity, which has less pressure? My understanding is pressure=velocity. More pressure more velocity. I understand the pressure developes differently between BP and smokeless. Not Mr Bradshaw, but I do want to point something out since I do subscribe to the velocity=pressure theory. A heavy load of titegroup in one of my 45C Ruger only loads provides 1126fps. Another load using H110 produces 1348fps with the same bullet. However the slower titegroup load produces 29,843psi. The faster H110 load produces 27,234psi. The velocity difference is from the time under the pressure curve produced by the powder's burning characteristics. The slower powders build up to their peak a bit slower, but remain in the peak longer causing the higher velocity. The faster powder gets the bullet up to speed quicker,but drops it's pressure faster as well. Velocity=pressure comparison is only valid using the same powder from the same lot all else being equal. Using a faster powder to achieve the same velocity of slower powders is basically building a bomb.
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Post by marlin35 on Apr 6, 2024 20:34:35 GMT -5
Mr. Bradshaw not to argue with you, but for information. Let's say you're shooting a BP load in a revolver and you get 1000 fps muzzle velocity. So say if you load smokeless and it gets slightly less muzzle velocity, which has less pressure? My understanding is pressure=velocity. More pressure more velocity. I understand the pressure developes differently between BP and smokeless. Not Mr Bradshaw, but I do want to point something out since I do subscribe to the velocity=pressure theory. A heavy load of titegroup in one of my 45C Ruger only loads provides 1126fps. Another load using H110 produces 1348fps with the same bullet. However the slower titegroup load produces 29,843psi. The faster H110 load produces 27,234psi. The velocity difference is from the time under the pressure curve produced by the powder's burning characteristics. The slower powders build up to their peak a bit slower, but remain in the peak longer causing the higher velocity. The faster powder gets the bullet up to speed quicker,but drops it's pressure faster as well. Velocity=pressure comparison is only valid using the same powder from the same lot all else being equal. Using a faster powder to achieve the same velocity of slower powders is basically building a bomb. So in your estimation, if a max load of titegroup (just for example) is below saami max for .45 colt, then shouldn’t a minimum load be safe in a (borderline) smokeless era colt?
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Post by bigbore5 on Apr 6, 2024 21:04:07 GMT -5
Short answer is maybe. But not trying it in my gun. I'd use the volume equivalent equal to 30gr black powder load of Triple Seven under a 250gr rnfp bullet for 800fps at 9500cup or 35gr under a 200gr swc for 950fps at 8500cup. Those are Hodgdon book load data from the cowboy load manual.
If you don't already know DO NOT WEIGH THE SUGESTED CHARGES OF 777! Use a regular black powder volumetric scoop of the proper size or setting if it's adjustable and measure out the loads. I just use the measure to first weigh 10 individual charges to be sure they all are the same, then set my regular measure to throw that weight. It will not weigh the same as black powder since it is bulkier.
Triple 7 has been as clean as many smokeless powders for me and seems not to be overly corrosive like pyrodex or black powder.
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Post by marlin35 on Apr 6, 2024 21:07:04 GMT -5
Short answer is maybe. But not trying it in my gun. I'd use the volume equivalent equal to 30gr black powder load of Triple Seven under a 250gr rnfp bullet for 800fps at 9500cup or 35gr under a 200gr swc for 950fps at 8500cup. If you don't already know DO NOT WEIGH THE SUGESTED CHARGES OF 777! Use a regular black powder volumetric scoop of the proper size or setting if it's adjustable and measure out the loads. I just use the measure to first weigh 10 individual charges to be sure they all are the same, then set my regular measure to throw that weight. It will not weigh the same as black powder since it is bulkier. Triple 7 has been as clean as many smokeless powders for me and seems not to be overly corrosive like pyrodex or black powder. I believe I will try the triple 7 and forget the smokeless for that old colt. It is simply not worth the chance of something going wrong. Can’t help but get caught up in the comparison between smokeless and BP though.
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Post by bigbore5 on Apr 6, 2024 21:13:34 GMT -5
Those loads duplicate the original 45 Colt black powder factory ballistics with even less pressure than the originals. It's 45acp performance though. And they are fun.
You can find the Cowboy manual to download for free online.
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