38sp snubbie self defense loads

[Fowler]

www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=111

What everyone’s opinion on these full wadcutter self defense loads for the 38sp and 44sp rounds that have popped up on the market from a bunch of manufacturers in the last couple of years?

I have used similar bullets off and on through the years for mild target loads. I personally never found them to shoot nearly as accurately as the classic hollow base wadcutters did but we are talking 10 yards or less distances here so I don’t think that is something that factors in here.

We all know guys (I’ve tried it) who flipped the old hollow base wadcutters around so they were a big hollowpoint but being pure lead they don’t exactly penetrate much. I’ve noticed on steel plates they move the plate less than 22lr ammo will sometimes. A regular SWC will move the plate many times as much.

These certainly would penetrate well and cut a hole deep into the problem. But how do we think they would perform vs say a 110gr-140gr jacketed hollowpoint such at the XTP or Gold Dot that has been in my 442 for 20 years? I mean I don’t want to be shot by either one and this is just idle curiosity at moment but thoughts? This is just a self defense discussion again 2 legged issues not 4 legged one in the backcountry.

[boolitdesigner]

People load wad-cutters, both solid and hollow base, many different ways. The BB wad-cutters look fine for what they say they are, BUT.... there are a few VERY effective ways to load WC's to some very deadly configurations. It's quite easy to get even 38 Specials at normal pressures to take the fight out of ornery animals because it's where you dump that energy in the animal that counts. You're not looking for fast or blown up bullets here. You shoot animals and vermin with them and you learn the difference. Larger calibers have more potential also!

[sixshot]

Bill, I don't know what everyone else shoots but I load solid wadcutters with 3.5 grs of Bullseye & I would not want to be on the receiving end of one of them, much less five!

Dick

[bigbore5]

I often carry a 38sp loaded with +p de wadcutters. Plenty accurate as far as I can shoot it with the poor sights (S&W M36 2").


I also don't worry too much about how they compare to factory hollow points because the hp's usually fail to expand at the low snubby velocities. The wadcutter is already full diameter at the meplat. It really smacks instead of poking right through.

[bula]

My 44spec Bulldog is fond of 185gr DEWC's on 7grs of Unique. A no fuss, no muss full caliber hole. As a defensive loading, am concerned that the next cylinder full via  a speedloader will take precious time to get into the cylinder. I live a relatively rural kinda life, am less concerned with over penetration than some of you. 

[bigbore5]

Jul 15, 2023 7:12:51 GMT -5 bula said:

My 44spec Bulldog is fond of 185gr DEWC's on 7grs of Unique. A no fuss, no muss full caliber hole. As a defensive loading, am concerned that the next cylinder full via  a speedloader will take precious time to get into the cylinder. I live a relatively rural kinda life, am less concerned with over penetration than some of you. 

I carry my speed loaders/strips with swc's for a quick reload. I figured if 5 wadcutters don't do it, then I am going for penetration.

[bula]

Yes, my concern lead me to having 205gr RNFP's for next ins..

[bigbrowndog]

My personal favorite for 38’s and defense are Federal 129 or 124gr (can’t recall exact) HydraShoks. I used that particular load on a feral hog once with excellent results.

Trapr

[rjm52]

Most anything will kill ya...sometimes however you need someone stopped RIGHT NOW and in my time in LE the .38 Special and +P were marginal.

Don't carry a .38 all that much but when I do it is loaded with the Buffalo Bore 158 LWSC-GC HP or the solid Outdoorsman load. Underwood and Lost River (Mackay Sagebrush) have similar loads. They duplicate or slightly exceed the original .38-44/High Speed load.

The originals were running:
158 grain/1115 fps
150 grain/1175 fps
110 grain/1300 fps
...from a 5" barrel.

These were probably running in the 25k psi area. The new versions are running 28.5k psi:

castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?448310-Chronographed-Underwood-38-Spl-P-%93Keith%94-158-gr-SWC

castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?430102-Your-38-Heavy-Duty-Propellants-of-Choice/page2

Have been running Heavy .38s from my guns since the 1970s with zero issues...

Bob

[handloadingnotes]

I prefer hollow based wadcutters, used as hollow based wadcutters, and think there is some merit for the idea of using them in a small gun that's carried for self defense. I would rather use a modern expanding hollowpoint like a Gold Dot than try to improvise my own by misusing a wadcutter by loading it backwards. There has been a *lot* of research and development over the decades on making better expanding defensive handgun ammunition. It seems foolish to not use it. That said, I don't know how much I trust anything out of a snubbie will expand. The Buffalo Bore solid wadcutters seem like a good option for someone who does not believe in expansion and can handle some recoil. I don't know if they'r better than a 150 grain SWC. But seating the bullet inside the case gives maximum protection against crimp-jump. That can matter in a light gun.

It's important to set the stage here. Since we're talking about snubbies, we've already accepted that we will trade off downrange effectiveness in order to get a gun that will actually be there with us — and go bang — when we need it. We're really *trying to find the smallest and lightest gun that could possibly work*.

With that mindset — I'm not actually sure expansion is something to be looking for. Enough penetration is a hard requirement but zero expansion can still work. And expansion limits penetration. Expansion is more variable  — sometimes bullets expand, sometimes they don't. More consistent performance makes it easier to min-max a load to always do enough but no more. In a larger gun when there is size and energy to spare, it's more acceptable to have some rounds not penetrate as far. But for the job a snubbie does — better to trade off some barrel length, or cartridge size, to get a more carry-able gun instead of expansion.

A totally flat wadcutter shaped bullet has the most wounding potential of any solid design. It won't penetrate as well as a round nose. But it will at least behave consistently. Yes, we're trading penetration to get a larger wound — but in a more controlled way than with hollow points. And in practice wadcutters penetrate enough.

Seating a wadcutter deep in the case is more efficient. This means less powder and less recoil for a given weight x velocity. If someone wants more velocity and can only get it by seating the wadcutter long that's fine too. It's still a good use of overall size. If the bullet jumps crimp it has to creep even further to tie up the gun.

A hollow base wadcutter squeezes that extra bit of energy out of a small revolver, by forming a better gas seal. I don't know if it really matters in practice. But the idea of it seems right to me.

Snubbies are hard to shoot, especially the lighter ones that are easier to carry. Lower recoiling ammunition actually helps here. We can absolutely train >90% with low recoiling wadcutters, and carry more potent ammunition. But it's worth considering that if we shoot wadcutters measurably better at the range — then we'd also expect to shoot them better when it's life or death. Since shot placement and speed matters so much, it may make sense to choose wadcutters.

That's sort of the argument made here: www.luckygunner.com/lounge/wadcutter-ammo-self-defense/

A couple tangents:

I'd really like to see a 38 Wadcutter Only snubbie made of modern lightweight materials. With a smaller frame and cylendar that only had enough room for a 38spl case loaded flush. And only rated for low pressure, not +P, to shave that last bit of size and weight. That would need so much engineering it's probably just a dream. But it feels like a better tradeoff than many snubbies I see on store shelves.

This isn't quite what you're asking, but I liked this video. I may not agree with it, but it's thought provoking — "Why my snubby is a 22LR" www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ3ZPmxcR5c

[gnappi]

I wouldn't use one but certainly wouldn't want to be hit by one.

[AxeHandle]

FWIW Berry makes a plated hollow base wadcutter. Is it Speer #8 or #9 that has the special loading data section for the 38 Special snubs?

[bula]

The LCR that recently attached itself to me like a tick, was an impulse buy, but logic used by myself, on myself, while reaching for the wallet, would have run like the above postings. The LCR smaller and lighter yet, than the C.A. 44spec Bulldog. The LCR is in my Carhart T-shirt pocket right now. My Bulldog is heart broken.. 

[bigbore5]

T-shirt pocket? If it's that light my 642 might end up heart broken too. But they're still ugly.

[needsmostuff]

Picked these up a few years ago but still haven't done the work.
They do look like the perfect answer too low to mid velocity 38 manstoppers.
Hydro-shock in what seems to be about a mid hardness.


]

While not 38s seems like a good place to show these.
Friend of mine casts these from an unidentified mold and has them in 44 & 45.
At first glance you think hollow base (but they are a cupped base) but they are not. Long ole cylinders but not real heavy. Bout 200 gr. if I remember right.
They don't look like they would fly right but they cut beautiful holes in paper
The big ole generous cylinders and throats in 1917 Colts & S&Ws really love them.