Developing precision with a single action

[secondbarrel]

After receiving some terminal ballistics help from folks here who set me on a good path to developing a hunting load,  I then began trying to develop proficiency with my custom BH in 45 Colt with the goal of developing good trigger control and small groups.  I was surprised to see just how poorly I shoot single actions.  Fifty yard groups are no smaller than a foot in diameter and often shifted considerably (more vertically than horizontally) from the previous group.  One twelve inch group will be above the bull.  The next will be below it.  The next might have its five shots divided up between being above, on the bull, and below it.  The cause I think, is inconsistent movement of the firearm in recoil which results in the muzzle being in different places at the instant the bullet leaves the barrel. I need to hear from experienced hunters with single actions, what can be done to improve consistency.  Here’s what I.know so far…
 1.  The gun is accurate.  Ransom Rest testing confirmed.
 2.  The load is accurate.  Same proof.
 3. I am accurate, at least with all my other handguns.  What I mean to say is that I can call my shots and my wobble area is about the nine ring (six inches) at fifty yards, offhand with my Bullseye guns (which include revolvers).  I believe I have a good trigger process with this revolver as well though the gun moves considerably due to the mass of the hammer which is very new to me. I can see the sights move when the sear releases the hammer.
 4. I am starting out since I am new to revolvers larger than 38 special, with a slow (800 ft/sec) load which I know is exasperating the problem.  More barrel time is more time to influence POI.  I wanted however to start out slow so as to not develop a flinch.
5. I don’t seem to get any improvement using a rest under the muzzle, under the middle of the barrel, under the frame, or under the butt. The variation in gun movement during recoil does not calm down with any of these techniques.

As an experiment that is focused on the barrel time theory, I am headed to the range today with 950 ft/sec loads to just see, keeping everything else constant, if simply reducing barrel time will shrink groups.  Because of the previously mentioned inexperience I’d rather not go straight to training with my 1,100 f/s hunting load that I worked up.

Thanks in advance to you experienced handgun hunters, for your advice.
 

[COR]

It’s as “simple” as perfectly holding and gripping each and every shot with the exact same amount of pressure on each point on the handgun and mimicking the EXACT sight picture each time as well as your trigger pull and pressure…

It’s not the load or dwell time… it’s just range time… time behind each gun and if it were easy none of us would strive for it! Very few are great but if you keep shooting you will get better every day.

Burn powder. Have fun. You’ll get better. Keep it simple. Sounds like you’re doing just fine. Keep shooting.

I forgot to add… the between the legs, sitting on the ground with forearms between legs is my preferred “precision” stance. Not a bench and arms rested not any of the gun.

[bula]

You mention the gun being custom, Which grip frame, grips ? If a good bit different than your other handguns, issue may be right there. Well, some of it. COR is right, consistent grip, pressure equal small groups. This my weak spot too ! That and medium sized hands that make many handguns difficult to run well. 

[bigbrowndog]

My first question would be how do you intend in using the SA??………if for hunting then decide how you will most likely shoot the gun while hunting and develop your form and position based on that useage.

I use my guns for hunting, and prefer to rest the end of the frame in front of the trigger guard on my rest. I also strive to rest my arms on something, knees, pack, etc. Something that will provide more stability. I can do this from sticks while sitting or kneeling, a hunting stand, taller sticks while standing, prone, pretty much any suitable hunting position. The only other shooting position that I might take would be offhand on a closer target, and through trial and error I know where offhand shots land compared to a rested shot.

The grip tension is the same for each handgun, except for my 357max, and 500Max, which one uses very little and the other uses very much. Practicing with each prior to using is crucial since they are different. IMO, Getting grip tension consistency is only developed by shooting your gun the way you intend on using it and from your preferred position of accuracy.

Some prefer to shoot with the gun hanging out there and wrists or arms rested, some with the gun rested on the butt, others like myself with the frame rested, and still others with barrel rested on something. Find what you like and shoot best with and then strive for the grip that works.

Trapr

[jfs]

I had too much travel after the hammer broke on my old Redhawk and a trigger stop helped to tighten groups.... 

[taffin]

C-O-N-S-I-S-T-E-N-C-Y IS THE SHORT TERM AANSWER

[rkrcpa]

I agree with all of the preceding comments and will add one more thought for good measure.

As JFS stated, overtravel can be a contributor to the problem and in my experience, light hammer springs can be a problem also. The lock time on the Blackhawk is long and is even longer with a light spring. That is why I always use full power hammer springs.

That being said, nothing beats time behind the trigger.

[squawberryman]

Another revolver in 22.

[secondbarrel]

Apr 29, 2022 7:57:31 GMT -5 bula said:

You mention the gun being custom, Which grip frame, grips ? If a good bit different than your other handguns, issue may be right there. Well, some of it. COR is right, consistent grip, pressure equal small groups. This my weak spot too ! That and medium sized hands that make many handguns difficult to run well. 

That is exactly what I am dealing with.  Twenty years shooting Bullseye competition.  Even my rimfire is a conversion so all stages of the match are fired with a 1911.  Between dry fire training and live fire, I can’t imagine how much trigger time I’ve got with a 1911.  To say this Bisley grip frame is awkward is an understatement. 

[bigbrowndog]

It’s just time and good practice,…….I shot 1911esque guns in competition since the late 90’s, tens of thousands of rounds a year, my transition to Ruger Bisleys was not long or grueling. The fundamentals are all the same, I will say for me it was probably easier since I did shoot with two hands, whereas Bullseye is a one handed operation.
Don’t go shoot just to shoot, go with a plan or preferred outcome and work towards that, if it doesn’t feel good that day then end the session, better quality practice is preferred to sheer volume of shooting.

Trapr

[45MAN]

Apr 29, 2022 16:04:13 GMT -5 squawberryman said:

Another revolver in 22.

AND PLENTY OF 22 AMMO AND SHOOTING, WILL DO WONDERS FOR YOU.

[bradshaw]

Apr 29, 2022 7:17:38 GMT -5 secondbarrel said:

After receiving some terminal ballistics help from folks here who set me on a good path to developing a hunting load,  I then began trying to develop proficiency with my custom BH in 45 Colt with the goal of developing good trigger control and small groups.  I was surprised to see just how poorly I shoot single actions.  Fifty yard groups are no smaller than a foot in diameter and often shifted considerably (more vertically than horizontally) from the previous group.  One twelve inch group will be above the bull.  The next will be below it.  The next might have its five shots divided up between being above, on the bull, and below it.  The cause I think, is inconsistent movement of the firearm in recoil which results in the muzzle being in different places at the instant the bullet leaves the barrel. I need to hear from experienced hunters with single actions, what can be done to improve consistency.  Here’s what I.know so far…
 1.  The gun is accurate.  Ransom Rest testing confirmed.
 2.  The load is accurate.  Same proof.
 3. I am accurate, at least with all my other handguns.  What I mean to say is that I can call my shots and my wobble area is about the nine ring (six inches) at fifty yards, offhand with my Bullseye guns (which include revolvers).  I believe I have a good trigger process with this revolver as well though the gun moves considerably due to the mass of the hammer which is very new to me. I can see the sights move when the sear releases the hammer.
 4. I am starting out since I am new to revolvers larger than 38 special, with a slow (800 ft/sec) load which I know is exasperating the problem.  More barrel time is more time to influence POI.  I wanted however to start out slow so as to not develop a flinch.
5. I don’t seem to get any improvement using a rest under the muzzle, under the middle of the barrel, under the frame, or under the butt. The variation in gun movement during recoil does not calm down with any of these techniques.

As an experiment that is focused on the barrel time theory, I am headed to the range today with 950 ft/sec loads to just see, keeping everything else constant, if simply reducing barrel time will shrink groups.  Because of the previously mentioned inexperience I’d rather not go straight to training with my 1,100 f/s hunting load that I worked up.

Thanks in advance to you experienced handgun hunters, for your advice.
 

*****

Keep up practice with light loads.
By taking the time to describe, after years of bullseye discipline, your struggle with a single action grip, specifically Blackhawk or Bisley Blackhawk grip frame, invites a few observations.

Shot one-hand, Bullseye demonstrates OFFHAND in the strictest sense. The only difference between offhand and shooting from a rest, in standing the gun never stops moving. BREATHING and FOLLOW THROUGH define SQUEEZE. Bullseye technique has seen its share of doctrine, including a tight grip on the pistol. Consistency is the first victim of gripping a single action too tightly. Apply firmness only as recoil warrants. Otherwise, you end up fighting the gun. The grip of an auto pistol and the double action revolver with recoil hump on backstrap tolerate a bit of NERVE EXPRESSION; the curved backstrap of a single action does not tolerate nerve expression. The single action takes you for a ride, so you ride. All the way to the target.

There is a learning curve in transitioning from a one to two-hand hold. Subtleties of technique abound, so it pays to experiment. I would forget bullseye targets, and center on a rectangle of plain cardboard. Shoot as loose a grip as recoil allows.
David Bradshaw

[bigbrowndog]

David’s, last eight words are prophetic, you cannot cancel recoil only ride with it.

Trapr

[pete]

Sir, lots of great info here. I will concur with Mr. Bradshaw, FOLLOW THROUGH. It's the same as shooting a flintlock, if you've ever done that. It's all about the fundamentals, as a bullseye shooter you're very familiar with them. Good luck, dont give up, it takes practice!

[bigbore5]

One thing I have seen alot of people doing wrong is trying to hard. That gun has to be a piece of you to master it. That requires plenty of target time, but it also requires comfort and familiarity. Don't always worry about a tiny group. Just shoot it and try different things. All the better if you live in the country where can shoot more. Honestly I shoot rocks and fallen fruit or vegetables regularly. I only care about group size and such during load development. Otherwise I know if I can hit an over ripe cantaloupe at 75yds, I can hit lungs at the same range. Sometimes we want to master and control something so badly that we try too hard. Forget about the group size for awhile and just have fun. Trust me that if the gun and ammo measure up, those groups will tighten