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Post by Gary @ R&G on Jul 9, 2009 12:45:50 GMT -5
Amen Parson.
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Post by parson45 on Jul 10, 2009 6:58:55 GMT -5
Am I the only one that thinks that after you put one in him if he's still then you need to put another one in him? "still" what? Being still? Still moving? Still aggressive? You shoot until the threat is gone. When the threat is gone, you stop shooting. If you feel threatened, you keep shooting. There very well may come a time when you're going to have to explain why you still felt threatened. Perhaps Jeroome still felt threatened. If he can convince a jury of that, he will be acquitted. If he cannot, he's got a real problem. This is only partially about your own moral compass. It's also about answering to the law. This isn't about combat. If you're in combat, and you can't leave wounded prisoners behind, you have to do what you have to do. That's different. This is about dealing with violence in the United States, under the laws of the state where you have to defend yourself. Now, can we please take this thread back to the Taurus Judge or just stop it?
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Post by nobearsyet on Jul 10, 2009 12:09:04 GMT -5
Sorry, that was supposed to read still standing
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hammer
.30 Stingray
Posts: 233
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Post by hammer on Jul 26, 2009 10:36:22 GMT -5
Borrowed a Taurus Judge 410/45 with 3-inch barrel to try.
With both #9 and #4 shot results were pretty disappointing. At ten paces, the shot pattern covered six feet of an 8-foot-wide piece of plywood. So you couldn’t miss, or so you thought.
Shot at several trap clay targets positioned on white poster board. At ten paces, about half didn’t break on the first shot. This is either due to (1) too thin a pattern and missing the clay even though there were pellets on all sides of it or (2) lack of pellet energy to break the clay even if hit. Found the best way to break the clay was to sit it on top of the target stand and let the shaking of the stand cause the clay target to fall and hit the ground thereby breaking it.
Tried some factory 00 buck loads. Started the shooting at three paces. By ten paces one could aim centered at a man-size target and completely miss him with pellets hitting on either side of the man target but no hits on the target.
Did not find 410 slugs to be as good as 45 Colt loads.
Gave a try at some hand thrown clay targets. No breaks. Again, could be lack of energy, thin pattern, or just flat out missing them.
Have shot the Taurus Judge now with #9, #7½, #4, 00 buck, and slugs. Think for self-defense against humans the best bet is to use the optional 45 Colt with 255-grain LFN bullets, which from the 3-inch barrel and long jump before the rifling might not be all that fast.
If the 45 Colt option is going to be used, Taurus makes both 45 ACP and 45 Colt snubnoses which are much smaller than the Judge.
The Taurus Judge best use with shotshells is probably snake defense. Should be better than any snake load in a conventional pistol cartridge. Still, range had better be pretty close.
This is my second attempt to rationalize a Taurus Judge being added to my vault. It doesn't take much to get in. But for some reason, haven't found a way to slip it under the very low threshold.
Others may and will conclude differently. The local gunshops tell me that the Judge is the best selling gun by far since its introduction and that they can't keep them in stock.
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Post by nobearsyet on Jul 26, 2009 11:54:28 GMT -5
Hammer, I kinda think you're missing the point of the Judge. The 410 loads with 000 or 00 buck make for a pretty good manstopper load, what length chamber did the judge you tested have? and what length shell were you using? That plays a big difference with the little gun, all the nonbuckshot shot loads are good for is in fact snake defense, and dogs, because like you said, there's not a lot of pellet energy there, and the 410 slugs are big hunk of lead by comparison to the 250grn 45 colts. Give some of the new ammo intended just for the judga a try, it might change your ind
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hammer
.30 Stingray
Posts: 233
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Post by hammer on Jul 26, 2009 12:44:11 GMT -5
Shot some of the latest Federal Personal Defense loads made specifically for the Judge last night.
Does anyone know the actual weight of the 410 slug to compare it to the 45 Colt 255-grain bullet ?
One website concerning 410 slugs list their weights ranging from 80 to 115 grains depending on manufacturer and case length. This is comparable to ammunition for the 380 Auto pocket pistols and light 9mm bullets.
Been shooting the shorter shells. Appreciate the 3" shells should perform better. But there has only been one 3" chambered Judge sold locally. As you are aware, the 3" chambered Judges are difficult to come by.
Again, realize this is the best selling gun in America today, so know that I am in the very small minority.
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Post by nobearsyet on Jul 27, 2009 12:42:46 GMT -5
Around here the 3" guns are easier to come by than the 2 1/2" guns
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Post by AxeHandle on Jul 27, 2009 17:21:13 GMT -5
Don't feel like the lone ranger there Hammer.... While I don't plan to look for perps in my house while holding a 50 bore single action.. I won't be holding a Judge either....
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Post by Frank V on Jul 27, 2009 19:38:22 GMT -5
I'd have a hard time trusting my life to a .410 from a handgun when a .45 Colt was available. Frank
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Post by parson45 on Jul 29, 2009 5:49:13 GMT -5
Hammer, I don't think you're missing the point at all. I think you're reinforcing that even though the judge is popular, it's the wrong answer for self defense.
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Post by nobearsyet on Jul 29, 2009 13:06:05 GMT -5
Hammer, I don't think you're missing the point at all. I think you're reinforcing that even though the judge is popular, it's the wrong answer for self defense. Not neccessarily, the question that should be posed is defense from what? I think it'll do dandy on dogs and cats, and loaded like mine is (alternating 45colt JHP, and 410 shotshells of various flavors) ought to make for a dandy everything stopper
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Post by AxeHandle on Jul 29, 2009 14:19:06 GMT -5
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robl
.375 Atomic
These were the good ole days!
Posts: 1,415
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Post by robl on Jul 29, 2009 16:27:13 GMT -5
Oh, wonderful, that spec sheet has a typo; they are all listed as 3" barrels. I KNOW that the PD is a 2" gun. This is going to confuse the already confused typical first time pistol buyer, and proud new owner of a Judge.
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Post by the priest on Jul 29, 2009 17:23:59 GMT -5
Hammer,
The Foster style slugs weigh around 95 grains. Some are slightly heavier/lighter but not much. IIRC the Federal is the heaviest and the Brenneke which is about the very best .410 slug available weighs about 88 grains. Shooting one slug vs. a 255 .45 Colt load would be foolish. If the barrel was properly choked the 5 buck loads from Winchester would be something special. Doesn't sound like that's the case.
It's an interesting concept for a small game revolver but with the spreads Hammer is talking about,....not so exciting. Papa's Paradox does much much better than that thing.
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hammer
.30 Stingray
Posts: 233
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Post by hammer on Jul 29, 2009 18:09:03 GMT -5
The Judge's biggest limitation is one that messes with many people who think of the best weapon for self-defense.
They think of the best weapon for a very specific scenario. Similar to one selecting a gun for hunting a very specific animal in a very specific terrain, climate, and vegetation setting.
However, self-defense is not like that. While one should plan and train for self-defense, if one actually was optimized for the specific situation that hits them it might be difficult to claim it was actually self-defense. Whatever you have when the sh*# hits the fan, which you were never participating when you got up this morning, is what you have to fight for home and family.
We could all imagine a specific scenario where the Judge could be a good self-defense gun, but is it an acceptable or even good gun for all the likely self-defense situations we might unintentionally find ourselves in ?
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