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Post by Lee Martin on Mar 3, 2021 14:20:48 GMT -5
Bradshaw-Martin 194 SWC Gas Check, POWDER COAT, loaded in old model Blackhawk .357 Mag. Front band a hair below case mouth, MEPLAT barely clears CYLINDER FACE.  Bradshaw-Martin 194 loaded in .357 Mag and .357 Maximum. Bullet is designed to DEEP SEAT. Seated over 12.5/H110 in Federal nickel.357 Mag without crimp. Friction holds bullet. Seated slightly deeper, over 18.5/IMR 4227 in Remington 1.605" .357 Maximum, with light roll crimp.  Redding .357 Maximum dies were used to load these .357 Mags. Redding STEPPED EXPANDER has been a favorite of David's for decades. The step openss case mouth just enough to squarely start heel of bullet. Less expansion than traditional BELL (aka flare). Round chambers without crimping.  Once fired Federal .357 Mag. No chamfer of case mouth----note impression left by factory crimp into Federal JHP cannelure. Cases charged with 12.5 grains/H110.  Fed .357 Mag case with Winchester Small Rifle primer. First load of Bradshaw-Martin 194 SWC GC was charegd to base of bullet with Hercules 2400----11.1 grains. No primer flattening, shell fell out chamber. Next, very lightly compressed charge of 12/2400 caused the beginning of primer flattening, sticky initial extraction. David selected 12.5/H110 as volume equal to 11.1/2400. Perceptible improvement in energy, no flattening, easy extraction.  Water-filled plastic 1-gallon milk jugs line up in freezing Fahrenheit to drink hot lead, namely the Bradshaw-Martin 194 over 12.5/H110 in .357 Mag brass. Note wood stick to set jugs in a straight line.  First shot penetrates 10 6"x6" jugs, exiting rear corner of jug #10, for 60-inches of penetration. Bradshaw-Martin 194 continues into snow. Entrance into snow & exit form dotted "i", indicated at front of muzzle. Bullet not recovered. Same for shot two, as bullet exited rear corner of jug #7, into snowbank, not to be found on this day.  From left: cast, powder coat, Bradshaw-Martin 194 SWC GC; fired from Blackhawk 4-5/8" .357 Mag (12.5/H110) and recovered from jug #9, for 51" penetration; fired from Blackhawk Maximum 10-1/2" .357 Maximum (18.5/IMR 4227) with 33" penetration.  Bullet compresses during penetration. Meplat spreads a bit, forming slight concavity.  Comparison of velocity with penetration. David estimates velocity of .357 Mag load at 1,000 to 1,050 fps.  -Lee www.singleactions.com"Chasing perfection five shots at a time" |
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Post by bradshaw on Mar 3, 2021 14:59:17 GMT -5
Lee.... plan to repeat this series when collect enough jugs. As we discussed, our bullet retains its weight, even bordering 1,800 fps (.357 Maximum, 22/H110). Last photo indicates relationship of VELOCITY to EXPANSION and EXPANSION to PENTRATION.
David Bradshaw
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jwp475
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,084
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Post by jwp475 on Mar 3, 2021 18:09:58 GMT -5
Amazing how well this bullet stands up to the velocity of the 357 Max. This bullet isn't a hardcast, perhaps more of a soft to medium cast. The powder coat seems to help maintain its weight and exhibit excellent expansion.
Color me impressed.
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Post by contender on Mar 3, 2021 23:25:38 GMT -5
I'm collecting jugs to do a bit of testing myself. I plan on using a bigger jug,, (empty cat litter jugs) that allow a bit more space for the bullets that want to wander off course. I haven't tried any of these bullets in a Magnum yet,, and,, may not,, depending upon my attitude at the time. Too many other irons in the fire to burn myself with.  Still a good way to get an idea of penetration & bullet performance. |
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Post by bradshaw on Mar 4, 2021 7:21:35 GMT -5
Tyrone,
When lining up jugs, I list & measure them. Juice and cat litter jugs, etc., are heavier plastic, so I want to note what the bullet went into. Easy to remember one sequence. Not so, when shooting one bullet after another. And that includes repeats of one bullet.
Don’t have a .480 Ruger, look forward to seeing your results.
Best in health,
David
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Post by contender on Mar 4, 2021 9:45:26 GMT -5
Yeah,, I didn't make any notes when I last tried that with the 480. And,, the bullet I used was a lubed one,, so I want to use a PC bullet this time. And I promise to use my noggin & make plenty of notes. I just remember how many jugs it went through AND exited the first time, so my second attempt required many more jugs. One thing I noticed,, was the occasional veering off to one side of a bullet as it travels through jugs of water. I've only done maybe a dozen water jug tests over many years,, mostly for fun. (I've always felt that meat & bone were better test mediums anyway.) But I have seen the occasional "exit stage left" so to speak before a bullet is captured. That's why I went with bigger jugs the last time to give me a larger area for a bullet to wander away from it's path, AND still stay in the jugs. Trying to be more serious can be a bit more work! |
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Post by bradshaw on Mar 5, 2021 13:17:19 GMT -5
Tyrone.... lead bullets and bullets which don’t deform penetrate more water jugs. Water jugs offer a lot of information, especially since the test medium is universally available & cheap. Especially when recovered bullets resemble----often indistinguishable from----the same projectile recovered from livestock and game, there is a lot to be learned.
Years ago Hugh Reed at Federal showed me the ropes on ballistic gelatin. Exacting specifications, mixing, refrigeration temperature, aging, small temperature window for official deductions, controls requiring space & expense. So far, I see behavior in water jugs which I see in the field. Variations as well. POWDER COAT represents an awakening, leastwise for this shooter. Lee reminded me the other night how I questioned ABRASION potential of powder coat on the bore. Neither Lee nor this shooter think about it now. (Which is not to say, some coating materials might contain an abrasive element.)
Another revelation, which we shall see in a future Bullet vs Water essay, show expansion failure of some established bullets.
Your .480 is destined to be a water hog, so save your jugs. Line ‘em up straight. If you have a sandbag or two to back up the jugs, you have a better chance of catching one that makes it through the line of jugs. By which time it may have too little steam to alter its profile.
David Bradshaw
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Post by contender on Mar 6, 2021 10:22:48 GMT -5
I have a good place,, (my range,) to catch stuff,, but sadly,,, too many OTHER bullets in the berms. But the idea of an independent sandbag behind it might work. But most likely,, I'll just add plenty of jugs. With 4 cats,, we use litter frequently enough to where jugs have been plentiful. Sadly,, back before Christmas,, I threw away about 6-7 of them. (I wasn't thinking of re-doing any tests at that time. It was deer season, and my mind was focused elsewhere!) Also, I do align my jugs,, so no problem there. Mostly,, in the past,, I just "played" with using water jugs as a test medium. My next time,, will be totally different. Details will be recorded. As will all my future endeavors at such stuff. |
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weiler
.30 Stingray
Posts: 423
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Post by weiler on Mar 7, 2021 16:21:14 GMT -5
Very cool stuff David! Inspired me to cast and powdercoat some ~168gr Lyman 358429's today for my Model 19.
No magnum pistol primers in the house, I see you are using Winchester Small Rifles, do you think a Rem 7 1/2 match rifle primer would substitute properly for use with H-110?
One side benefit of a 3 year old (and #2 shortly on the way) is a plethora of milk jugs at my disposal, as long as the wife doesn't pitch them.
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Post by bradshaw on Mar 7, 2021 16:56:03 GMT -5
Very cool stuff David! Inspired me to cast and powdercoat some ~168gr Lyman 358429's today for my Model 19. No magnum pistol primers in the house, I see you are using Winchester Small Rifles, do you think a Rem 7 1/2 match rifle primer would substitute properly for use with H-110? One side benefit of a 3 year old (and #2 shortly on the way) is a plethora of milk jugs at my disposal, as long as the wife doesn't pitch them. ***** Weiler.... you got it goin’ on. The Model 19 is a prime candidate for the anneal of a POWDER COAT Semi Wad Cutter. I’d use any primer you have that your revolver sets off double action. May have to tighten your STRAIN SCREW. I’d prime a case and try it. The primer will recoil against the primer pocket and jam the cylinder; just finesse it open. That’s exactly what happens when you fire loaded round: primer recoils against primer pocket, backing out. As powder jets against the bullet----case recoils against bullet----casehead sets back against firing pin bushing (standing breech), re-seating primer. Remington 7-1/2 small rifle primer has a tough cup and that is what we used rolling Rocks & Dynamite in prototype .357 Maximums. Just as the Federal 100 is the easiest small pistol primer to ignite, so are Federal rifle primers. One carefully designed experiment is worth 1,000 expert opinions; so I’d get on it. A good M-19 is a Wand of Lightning, snake-fast from the leather, a dead-nut ringer out yonder. Just keep it in the mellow range of .357 Mag and the wand rewards your eye & finger doing the right thing. Watched cops blow lead all over the place when they got their paws on double stack auto pistols. Some instructors said they forgot how to shoot. I think these folk never learned.... and now they’re off to a rough start. I can take a Model 19 and grow a shooter with less bullets than about any other pistol. For someone stuck with a po-boy Blackhawk .357, we'd close the gap. David Bradshaw |
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Post by ezekiel38 on Mar 7, 2021 20:59:13 GMT -5
A good M-19 is a Wand of Lightning, snake-fast from the leather, a dead-nut ringer out yonder. Just keep it in the mellow range of .357 Mag and the wand rewards your eye & finger doing the right thing. Watched cops blow lead all over the place when they got their paws on double stack auto pistols. Some instructors said they forgot how to shoot. I think these folk never learned.... and now they’re off to a rough start. I can take a Model 19 and grow a shooter with less bullets than about any other pistol. For someone stuck with a po-boy Blackhawk .357, we'd close the gap.
David Bradshaw
22 years a Police Firearms Instructor, these words ring out true!!!!
Most police executives have never spent a day on the street or had to deal with real life as a cop. The bottom line always had time (labor) and ammo spent (money) as a reality factor in purchasing and training budgets. Lots of lipservice to Officer Safety but no real commitment by most. There were exceptions, but they were exactly that, exceptions.
Guess that's why I still pack a roundgun.
Once the realiability issues were solved with the auto, they were embraced because jamming a magazine in a funnel was faster than teaching how to reload a cylinder. Tap, rack, bang was faster and easier than teaching how to squeeze off a double action 357. Auto cartridges didn't have the dreaded "Magnum" monicker anywhere on the firearm or the ammo box. When it comes to labor costs, time always translates into money. But time is what is necessary to train properly.
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weiler
.30 Stingray
Posts: 423
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Post by weiler on Mar 9, 2021 16:15:37 GMT -5
Very cool stuff David! Inspired me to cast and powdercoat some ~168gr Lyman 358429's today for my Model 19. No magnum pistol primers in the house, I see you are using Winchester Small Rifles, do you think a Rem 7 1/2 match rifle primer would substitute properly for use with H-110? One side benefit of a 3 year old (and #2 shortly on the way) is a plethora of milk jugs at my disposal, as long as the wife doesn't pitch them. ***** Weiler.... you got it goin’ on. The Model 19 is a prime candidate for the anneal of a POWDER COAT Semi Wad Cutter. I’d use any primer you have that your revolver sets off double action. May have have to tighten your STRAIN SCREW. I’d prime a case and try it. The primer will recoil against the primer pocket and jam the cylinder; just finesse it open. That’s exactly what happens when you fire loaded round: primer recoils against primer pocket, backing out. As powder jets against the bullet----case recoils against bullet----casehead sets back against firing pin bushing (standing breech), re-seating primer. Remington 7-1/2 small rifle primer has a tough cup and that is what we used rolling Rocks & Dynamite in prototype .357 Maximums. Just as the Federal 100 is the easiest small pistol primer to ignite, so are Federal rifle primers. One carefully designed experiment is worth 1,000 expert opinions; so I’d get on it. A good M-19 is a Wand of Lightning, snake-fast from the leather, a dead-nut ringer out yonder. Just keep it in the mellow range of .357 Mag and the wand rewards your eye & finger doing the right thing. Watched cops blow lead all over the place when they got their paws on double stack auto pistols. Some instructors said they forgot how to shoot. I think these folk never learned.... and now they’re off to a rough start. I can take a Model 19 and grow a shooter with less bullets than about any other pistol. For someone stuck with a po-boy Blackhawk .357, we'd close the gap. David Bradshaw Love the model 19, it was my first cartridge handgun at 16 and proved a great tool the various critters around the farm (although there were times I wish I would have carried some "barn loads" when that particular chore would arise) A couple years ago I swapped out the trigger return spring and a lighter mainspring to see how it was for my double action work, reliability double action was spotty with CCI primers (which happen's to be the supply the house right now), factory main spring has been replaced. I'll begin testing and report back. I have the "bradshaw" loads marked down in my records for 44 Magnum and 45 Colt, any recommendations on the 357 specifically for the Model 19 (as you say, not "rocks and dynamite")? I've pretty much stuck with ~13.5 grains 2400 under a 158 gr. jacketed/cast SWC. |
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Post by bradshaw on Mar 9, 2021 16:30:26 GMT -5
Weiler.... for a superbly accurate, moderate .357 Mag load for the Model 19, I’d deep seat 158 SWC over 12/2400. Manuals have plenty of dope on the .357.
S&W mainspring
My preference, the factory drop forged, tapered S&W leaf. I do not use a light mainspring in any revolver. Prefer Ruger and S&W factory mainsprings for their respective jobs. Trigger pull is NOT adjusted at the mainspring.
S&W trigger rebound spring
My preference, the S&W LIGHT REBOUND SPRING. Don’t know about current production. The old (standard) rebound spring is long enough to grind or clip one to 1-1/2 coils. Clipped or ground end is inserted into REBOUND SLIDE during re-assembly.
David Bradshaw
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weiler
.30 Stingray
Posts: 423
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Post by weiler on Mar 12, 2021 18:28:15 GMT -5
David, many thanks for the load dope and advice. This model 19-5 (built July of 86) has a 12 lb trigger return spring, factory appears to be 14 lb. The Remington 7 1/2's passed a test in the basement, loaded up a dozen and had spotty performance (ie misfire single action) at the range, with full mainspring. 167 grain cast powdercoated semi wadcutter deep seated over 14/H110 and a remington 7 1/2 BR churned out 1259 FPS with an ES of 7. 50 yard groupings ~6" which I attribute to expecting a misfire and being used to a heavy Ruger Bisley vs. a svelte Model 19. The same bullet seated at the crimp groove over 12.5/2400 yielded ~1,212 fps with an ES of 118 (I question the suns play on the chrono), while deep seated over 12/2400 was 1,196 avg. with an ES of 43. Both seemed to shoot ~3" at 50 yards (can do better!) .  |
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Post by bradshaw on Dec 5, 2021 10:13:26 GMT -5
Trey..... another possibility for your Ruger SP 101 snubnose, the Bradshaw-Martin 194 SWC GC. Been meaning to wring it out in the S&W M-640 2-1/8” .357 Mag----to develop a barnyard load.
David Bradshaw
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