the 475 v 500 debate - in tanks

[rkcohen]

i know a lot of fellas on the forum are ex-mil and have been away for a while..

so as we debate the merits of the 475 v 500, bigger popguns have been "percolating" elsewhere..

having gotten all the design mileage out of the 72/80/90 series platform, the "other guys" have decided to go "over hard" as it were with the t14 armata which currently totes the familiar 125mm (projectiles at a mile/second) with upgrade capability to the 152mm.
www.19fortyfive.com/2021/01/russias-t-14-armata-tank-is-a-modern-battlefield-warrior/

all done ostensibly to defeat the abrams and german leo II..

which in the great overmatch game means upgrading our systems as well......

when the m1 was fielded, it came with the familiar 105mm which had been around a good long time - and was outmatched when it was delivered.

a few smarter guys got involved and the tip of our spear was upgraded to the rheinmetall 120mm. in use in the bundeswehr leo II.

so with the exception of "bang" power, for over 40 years since fielding, most considerations for the m1 have been fire control and survivability.

and as with most athletes, it has gotten heavier, current versions over 70 tons.

one day, even tom brady will notice his knees "ain't" what they used to be...

so in the great 475 v 500 debate, what matters most?

not exactly the same thing, but looking at the writing on the wall - the bundeswehr has started the leo III design process, more gun, more power, more survivability. the interim gun will be a "high pressure" version of the current 120mm, leading ultimately to a new 130mm main gun. www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/leopard3.htm

and there isn't a whole lot of room left in the m1 turret to fit a new, bigger gun..

so how hard do you push your 475 or 500?

or do you surrender and go big frame - bfr and/or smith x frame?












en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_Rh-120

[bula]

Neat post ! I hope a bunch of folks pile on and dig in. I'll follow for the entertainment and a racing improves the breed kinda thing, crumbs I can pick up and use. Here ,I stopped at the Ruger 480 so can't help. I can't remember the last time I saw a tank or a watusi around here. A 500L itch has come and gone without damage to the wallet. 

[bula]

Guess I can offer some thoughts. I'd be looking at the BFR, but curious as to how the reach to the trigger compares to a BH/SBH framed 475/500 ? I've no interest in the X-frame. I have L frame size hands. 

[bushog]

1050-1100fps...

[bradshaw]

Feb 11, 2021 8:34:07 GMT -5 rkcohen said:

i know a lot of fellas on the forum are ex-mil and have been away for a while..

so as we debate the merits of the 475 v 500, bigger popguns have been "percolating" elsewhere..

having gotten all the design mileage out of the 72/80/90 series platform, the "other guys" have decided to go "over hard" as it were with the t14 armata which currently totes the familiar 125mm (projectiles at a mile/second) with upgrade capability to the 152mm.
www.19fortyfive.com/2021/01/russias-t-14-armata-tank-is-a-modern-battlefield-warrior/

all done ostensibly to defeat the abrams and german leo II..

which in the great overmatch game means upgrading our systems as well......

when the m1 was fielded, it came with the familiar 105mm which had been around a good long time - and was outmatched when it was delivered.

a few smarter guys got involved and the tip of our spear was upgraded to the rheinmetall 120mm. in use in the bundeswehr leo II.

so with the exception of "bang" power, for over 40 years since fielding, most considerations for the m1 have been fire control and survivability.

and as with most athletes, it has gotten heavier, current versions over 70 tons.

one day, even tom brady will notice his knees "ain't" what they used to be...

so in the great 475 v 500 debate, what matters most?

not exactly the same thing, but looking at the writing on the wall - the bundeswehr has started the leo III design process, more gun, more power, more survivability. the interim gun will be a "high pressure" version of the current 120mm, leading ultimately to a new 130mm main gun. www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/leopard3.htm

and there isn't a whole lot of room left in the m1 turret to fit a new, bigger gun..

so how hard to you push your 475 or 500?

or do you surrender and go big frame - bfr and/or smith x frame?

*****

Last time I look, the armor on whitetails wasn’t evolving fast enough to justify living with a 5-pound revolver on your hip. Reckon it becomes a war of semantics & opinions whether to arm yourself with a .475 or .500 bullet. Dick Casull and later John Linebaugh each set out to see what might be controlled, yet carried in a 3-pound sixgun, or, as I tend to call em, a five shooter. Now Ronnie Wells has jumped into the fray, kicked the doors off the GRIP FRAME LIMITATION. The horsepower race hits a ceiling called CONTROL-ABILITY. This is where the individual standing on the Firing Line must decide. It is a zone in flux with grip development. The grip spells or dooms PERFORMANCE.
David Bradshaw












en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheinmetall_Rh-120

[bearskinner]

I installed a RW Gripframes 4 degree frame on one of a pair of 500 Linebaughs. Shooting them with the same load, side by side, it is a NOTICABLE difference in recoil. The brass looks Sexy on that Octagon SS Barrel also. This was in the Bisley configuration. I prefer the Bearskinner version

[rkcohen]

bearskinner - ergos are EVERYTHING!

my jrh modified grip made my 475 a "kinder, gentler" more politically correct beast. sit boy - growl when i tell you too...

and had to take off my boots iot get into the gunners position in the m1!

[RDW]

Feb 11, 2021 13:18:41 GMT -5 rkcohen said:

bearskinner - ergos are EVERYTHING!

my jrh modified grip made my 475 a "kinder, gentler" more politically correct beast. sit boy - growl when i tell you too...

and had to take off my boots iot get into the gunners position in the m1!

Well well well RK! Sounds to me like you might have logged an hour or two in the Abrams! You certainly know your plate hammers!
Spent a bit of time at the Lima AT plant for GD in my DOD Days myself.
Built several machines including a 5 axis cnc saw to make armor (ERA) plates for the A2 and 3s. Currently repair windage and elevation sensors for them as well.
Interesting topic but not one to many can discuss mainly because of lack of Knowledge involved. 70 plus ton Armored rolling guns are a whole different world man.
As far as the 475 versus 500 goes. Good luck with that one cuz im afraid i flip flop on that one. I lovem Both. There is nothing on this planet roaming the dry land anymore that can even remotely tolerate a hit from either
one of these calibers at any load over a Thousand FPS. I have punched thru five foot of monster pigs in south Texas with both and watched the bullet skip on out across the field looking for another backstop that can stop it.
If we were to revive the Tyrannosaurus Rex maybe there could be a new challenge, but im afraid even a well plus chest shot would mean T rex steaks on the grill tonight. Haha.
Both of these rounds seriously rival big game cartridge performance when loaded to the gills. Its just a matter of how much recoil can you tolerate. For those that cant or dont want to, We have a solution!
Would love to talk Tanks with you Brother!
R
PS Worked on a smaller project upgrade for the A10C Wartpiggie GAU8 Gun that makes a big mess out of T14s. PGU 14/B,s 30mm Depleted Uranium gets really pissed off at steel. haha.

[squawberryman]

Hijack- a friend of mine has a depleted uranium insert from I don't know what. I'd trade a thousand primers for it

[RDW]

Feb 11, 2021 17:34:47 GMT -5 squawberryman said:

Hijack- a friend of mine has a depleted uranium insert from I don't know what. I'd trade a thousand primers for it

Does it still have the Aluminum and copper bullet wrapped around it or was it from a spent round?

[squawberryman]

Spent. It looks like the innards of one of the cutaways on the Wiki page you posted. It's about six inches long as I recall. I didn't read every word on the Wiki page but the smoothbore thing is bothering me. Care to share?

[RDW]

Feb 11, 2021 21:12:01 GMT -5 squawberryman said:

Spent. It looks like the innards of one of the cutaways on the Wiki page you posted. It's about six inches long as I recall. I didn't read every word on the Wiki page but the smoothbore thing is bothering me. Care to share?

Aha. I was having trouble understanding what you were referring to about the wiki page. Then i realized you were talking about the reference page that Rkcohen posted.
Aha. So  that cutaway is for a tank round like the M829A2.  Gau8 guns send a little bit smaller round, but same principle. The smooth bores are a bit different. Get up enuff steam and speed , Who needs rifling.
I know that one of our 120mm smooth bore experiments was over 7000 FPs. I was watching the flight time at the test site and i was astounded at watching a target blow up in half a second, knowing it was a mile away.
Most smooth bores in the 120mm range are already above 5000 FPs and good for a couple of miles. What i believe is so badass about the Abrams is the fire control system. ive seen them hit a trashcan a half a mile away
while moving sideways at 40 mph bouncing up and down.
Mean Jelly Beans they are.
I bet RK could shed some experience to the subject.
Looking forward to hearing from him!

[rkcohen]

as an inf guy, i was selected to attend the armor officer advance course "back in the day."

it was a shock!

life at knox made me think i was in oz!

the quarters there were a WORLD better than anything benning had and the staff at that place was first rate..

before the advance course, i took the m1 commander's course - coming from a grunt/brad background, i was in class most days not believing i worked for the same army!

when we did our gunnery live fire qualification, i made all shots count - enough so that the nco cadre there let me have several other rounds to "exercise.."

the e7 sitting on my turret when i came off the line gave me a max score and asked my background and we talked a bit.

how does anyone MISS with this system i asked?

he chuckled a bit and said you'd be surprised.

now with all the upgrades - many of which in the way of fire control which have been applied to the brad as well - it's always a bad day for the "other guy"

in desert storm i was a team commander, inf/brads and m1s - wouldn't have had it any other way!

our "discussions" with the other fellas, whether in trench clearing or engaging bmps as well as t72s - were always brief and often spectacular...

believe it or not, when i get together with some of my men these days, when we pray for our own team, we also say a prayer for those that were in front of our guns as well.

[squawberryman]

Not many WANT to be there I'd imagine, though some are strange.

[x101airborne]

I was OMMCS trained at NASA in Huntsville, AL. I can fix your circuit cards, but have no idea about how to make the big gun go "bang".