Fowler
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 3,565
|
Post by Fowler on Jan 30, 2021 15:55:33 GMT -5
Could you cast a few,with the same alloy and water quench/PC and see if they do what they’re supposed to? Only other thought is something going on with baking the bullets annealing your alloy and making it really soft. How long between casting/PC till you shot them? That is a very soft alloy and would take at least three weeks before they stabilized where I would shoot them. I’m not sure but I’d guess 7-10 days. From casting to shooting. I normally take a lot more time than that but new mold and wanting to see what it would do with early tests being quite positive. I got the mold about Christmas time so it couldn’t be too long.
|
|
|
Post by Lee Martin on Jan 30, 2021 16:22:02 GMT -5
I've cast and powder coated same day and shot the next (25:1 alloy). Never had a problem. They shoot the same as those with weeks in between cast, PC, and firing. If the powder is that "time sensitive", you're using the wrong powder. -Lee www.singleactions.com "Chasing perfection five shots at a time"
|
|
|
Post by bradshaw on Jan 30, 2021 21:19:45 GMT -5
Bill.... a light compression line, aka thread choke, in the bore at the junction of barrel/frame, is bound to aggravate bullet abrasion. Even before a fired bullet reaches the short ring of bore compression, abrasion could start in the chamber exit hole or forcing cone. How’s the forcing cone?
Baking at 400-degrees to melt & fuze POWDER COAT anneals lead containing antimony. Some of these bucket are pretty soft. Yet, Lee may have put his finger on the bullet-half the equation----inferior powder. From what you say and show, both revolver & bullet need work.
Eagerly await solution to your fierce lead deposits. David Bradshaw
|
|
Shakey
.327 Meteor
Central Arkansas
Posts: 543
|
Post by Shakey on Jan 31, 2021 1:42:51 GMT -5
I probably should not even comment on this since I have NO experience with powder coating but, I have been paying attention to what you guys that do have had to say.
I agree that the problem probably stems from too-soft bullets. Considering that baking the PC anneals the bullets, perhaps water quenching them when you remove them from the oven might restore at least some of their hardness.
It would be a simple thing to test. Just reheat some of the bullets you already have, water quench them, see how they work. Even without a hardness tester you can get an idea whether you have regained some of the hardness by comparing what a hammer does to the quenched vs air-cooled.
|
|
|
Post by webber on Jan 31, 2021 6:49:24 GMT -5
Very simple, conventionally size and lube some bullets from the same alloy, shoot them carefully watching the barrel to see if they start leading. If they do lead it is not the PC. If they dont it is the PC. When PCing bullets and are air cooled they don't go softer than the parent alloy. If you water quench from the mold to get hardness, let them harden then PC and let them air cool they go will go back to no less than the hardness of the parent alloy. What ever that is for that alloy. Keep It Super Simple.
|
|
|
Post by boolitdesigner on Jan 31, 2021 12:06:39 GMT -5
I've cast and powder coated same day and shot the next (25:1 alloy). Never had a problem. They shoot the same as those with weeks in between cast, PC, and firing. If the powder is that "time sensitive", you're using the wrong powder. -Lee www.singleactions.com "Chasing perfection five shots at a time" He used: "probably 2/3 pure lead and 1/3 2-6 alloyed lead" as an alloy... which is subject to age hardening due to the antimony in it if the tin content is much lower than the antimony content, and he pushed it past the limit (due to the 3 times higher tin than antimony content it probably will be a lot softer than normal) at the time he shot it. Lead/tin alloys are not subject to age hardening. Using specific alloys entails knowing what their properties are to achieve what you want and not a powder problem.
|
|
diddle
.30 Stingray
Posts: 470
|
Post by diddle on Jan 31, 2021 14:10:15 GMT -5
It sounds as if the leading starts right at the barrel to frame connection and then gets progressively worse. I’d start by getting the thread choke out of the barrel. IME, 30 shots of fire lapping isn’t near enough to make a significant difference. Whether it’s the cause of this issue or not, it’s not helping you. So, getting rid of it isn’t wasted effort. Who knows, maybe you’ll get lucky.
|
|
|
Post by sixshot on Jan 31, 2021 15:01:45 GMT -5
Late to the party here as I haven't been on the internet for a couple of days but Bill did send me photo's of this the day it happened & I was shocked! I've never seen leading that bad without a damaged gun, I was glad he didn't get hurt. Not sure what happened but maybe several things adding up. First I think that powder might be the biggest problem, some powders work better than others. Also with that soft alloy if the powder quality isn't there you are basically shooting pure lead. After a few shots your barrel gets warm/hot & the problems start to add up. I've never tried it but now I might when the weather gets better but I think a pure lead bullet with a quality powder coating could stand a fair amount of velocity without leading if bullet fit was correct. Remember a whole lot of Bison were killed with pure lead bullets. Perhaps Bob (Bullet Designer) has already done this.
Dick
|
|
|
Post by Lee Martin on Jan 31, 2021 15:01:45 GMT -5
He used: "probably 2/3 pure lead and 1/3 2-6 alloyed lead" as an alloy... which is subject to age hardening due to the antimony in it if the tin content is much lower than the antimony content, and he pushed it past the limit (due to the 3 times higher tin than antimony content it probably will be a lot softer than normal) at the time he shot it. Lead/tin alloys are not subject to age hardening. Using specific alloys entails knowing what their properties are to achieve what you want and not a powder problem. I'm going to respectfully disagree. Antimony and tin are harder than pure lead as cast. No argument that antimony age hardens a bit. Regardless, it's still harder than a near pure lead pour. Last year, I cast the end-cuts from the wire I use to swage BR bullets. It's 99.25% lead and 0.25% antimony (pretty much pure lead). I filled the pot with those and made 240 gr .41's which I shot at 1,000 fps PC'd. There was no leading. Either way, we powder coat as a means to shoot soft cores at normal lubed speeds. In Fowler's case, the PC either didn't adhere properly or it was stripped. That's a PC issue. I'm still interested to know how they shoot un-coated with lube. -Lee www.singleactions.com"Chasing perfection five shots at a time"
|
|
|
Post by junebug on Feb 1, 2021 12:44:39 GMT -5
The 357 I talked of in the 357 post was worse than that. I pulled strips of lead the length of the 6 1/2 in barrel. It had been fed a diet of the old 38 RN lead bullets and apparently never cleaned . Those bullets seemed to lead everything they were shot thru and were very soft. Once the first one leaves the first bit of lead the process seems to accelerate for the rest of the shots.
|
|
Fowler
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 3,565
|
Post by Fowler on Feb 1, 2021 18:32:10 GMT -5
Ok Where I am at is this, that particular mix of lead I couldn't replicate on a dare. It was a coffee can of cut sprews, chunks of old plumbing pipe, and some various odds and ends I wanted to clean up. I am of the opinion the lead was just way too soft, it might have held up at 800fps, it might have help up at the 1000fps for a few rounds but for 150 or so shot in quick succession I created the perfect storm to break everything down.
I have 75 or so more bullets that I haven't loaded, I could but I think I will just melt them back down with known harder alloys and not worry about the brain damage.
The bullet itself is one that I really want to work out, I think it should be a good one, at least everyone else seems to have great results with it and on paper should be near perfect all around bullet for me. I have searched high and low for a 45 colt bullet in a standard weight that shoots as well as I think they should. I have heavies that have shown what some of what my guns are capable of, I just want to find a stand weight bullet that can keep up.
I will cast a batch up here shortly from pure 2-6 alloyed lead and PC some and lube some others and see what I can prove that way, I am betting I will be far happier. Like I said I had shot some of these successfully earlier and this oddball mix of lead was really the only difference. I might also try a different brand of PC but I have driven it to over 2150fps in my 45/70 without it breaking down with harder bullets.
At any rate it will be fun to see what I learn here, as other said there is so much you can do with casting your own bullets..
|
|
|
Post by x101airborne on Feb 2, 2021 8:44:11 GMT -5
If you have a hardness tester it would be interesting what the original bullets were and the new batch is.
|
|
|
Post by cas on Feb 7, 2021 11:53:09 GMT -5
Seems to me if your powder is the color of lead, it's hard to tell just how well your powder is actually coating? (obviously lol)
|
|
|
Post by kaytod on Feb 7, 2021 16:09:01 GMT -5
Friends all, I've no experience with powder coating. However, Tank Hoover has convinced me to try some, so I'll have experience in the near future. My biggest problems with powder coating is shooting a game animal with a pink bullet. Must be just me....
As Lee Martin said, I'd love to see what the same bullet would do without the PC and lubed traditionally.
This is a simple solution to see if the PC was the cause. Then Bill will know where to start. PC, Powder or alloy.
The times I've seen this level of leading in revolvers is due to two primary reasons. Bad gun, or bad powder/bullet combinations. There are other times leading occurs with other problems, we've all been there. Eliminate the easy variable, and shoot the bullets with traditional, good quality lube. See if it occurs again.
|
|
|
Post by x101airborne on Feb 7, 2021 17:53:49 GMT -5
My defense loads use a Lavender hollow point. I want the ME to say "Hey Bob! Come here, this idiot got shot with a LAVENDER bullet! Who does that?"!
|
|