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Post by sixshot on Oct 17, 2019 16:42:44 GMT -5
Finally got to do more testing with a new to me BFR 44 magnum I got from a good friend recently. I've only run a few rounds down the barrel but for sure it's a shooter. I have a load worked up to use as a base line, now I want to get this other bullet shooting & it's been an interesting day. I want to show some targets & get others thoughts before I throw out what I think might be going on. A few days ago I shot a group at 50 yds that went just under an inch & for now that will be my base line groups & I'll try to beat it with this bullet. We'll talk about the base line load more a bit later. Here is a couple more photo's of the custom shop 44 magnum with Wiegand mounts and 3 rings & a 2X6 Bushnell scope, a very tidy combo. Next is my first test load using Longshot powder & the 243 gr penta HP powder coated bullet. You can see they strung just a bit when starting out with 10 grs of Longshot. Since I'm charting new waters for me with this powder I started a bit low & worked up. Longshot, in the burning chart is close to HS7. I shot 4 rounds of the 10 gr load & the were fair for a 50 yd group. Next up I tried 3 rounds of 11 grs of Longshot & then 12 grs of Longshot. Both times the first shot was the low one. You can also see the next two shots were touching but higher. Here's my question to you, what do you think happened to cause the shots to go high & nice & tight with both groups. OK, then I went home & loaded 5 rounds of 13 grs of Longshot & ran back to the range. Again, I'm working with a powder I've never used in the 44 magnum but I really like it, it gives good velocity with low pressures in other calibers so I wanted to give it a try. I shoot the first round & it goes dead center bullseye at 50 yds, bingo! Now the next 4 shots, like the earlier 2 groups do the same thing, they walk. I've got the next 4 shots in an inch but higher & left. What's your therory??? Dick Dick
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Post by whitworth on Oct 17, 2019 17:30:55 GMT -5
Might the scope be going south?
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Post by taffin on Oct 17, 2019 17:34:26 GMT -5
ONE MORE VOTE FOR THE SCOPE
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Post by seminolewind on Oct 17, 2019 17:48:20 GMT -5
I would suggest grouping each chamber separately. Perhaps the gun has a renegade chamber or two.
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cmillard
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MOLON LABE
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Post by cmillard on Oct 17, 2019 18:47:35 GMT -5
I would also mark the Chambers. I had an issue with a Ruger bisley that did the same. When I measured the offending cylinder chamber, it measured .449 and all 5 others were .450. I soon reamed them all to .4525 with the manson kit and viola, unbelievable accuracy with zero fliers
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Post by mobjack on Oct 17, 2019 20:42:37 GMT -5
<snip> I measured the offending cylinder chamber, it measured .499 and all 5 others were .450. I soon reamed them all to .4525 <snip> Is .499 a typo, and should be 0.449? If not, I would send it back to Ruger.
Mobjack
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cmillard
.375 Atomic
MOLON LABE
Posts: 1,943
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Post by cmillard on Oct 17, 2019 20:44:37 GMT -5
Dang, good catch. Edited
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Post by sixshot on Oct 17, 2019 23:39:20 GMT -5
We will know tomorrow. Here's my little secret, I did something I haven't done in maybe 15-18 years, I loaded some metal bullets! All metal as in CEB's. That's Cutting Edge Bullets. These were 200 gr Raptor HP's & I shot one group under an inch & another just slightly over an inch at 50 yds back to back. So, tomorrow I'll shoot some more of them along with 14 grs & 15 grs of Longshot with the 243 gr powder coated HP's.
Now, here's my theory & it could be wrong, we'll know tomorrow, but I think it's the powder column in the case. When I shoot with a scope I use sandbags with a heavy piece of leather over the top bag & then a soft bag under the butt of the gun, I'm looking for the best accuracy the gun will do if it's scoped, other wise I shoot siting off of my knees.
So here's my method, I fire the first round & the gun has to be elevated to be placed on the bags, that shot goes where I'm holding, pretty much dead center. After that I leave the gun on the bags & just cock it with my left thumb. You can see with 11, 12 & 13 grs the first shot went pretty much center & the other shots went high, indicating a powder column laying down in the bottom of the case, igniting slower & causing the bullet to impact high. Maybe, just maybe this is what's happening. Also it might be that a magnum primer might be of some help. We'll know tomorrow. It's either the scope, or the powder column.......isn't it?
Dick
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Post by squigz on Oct 18, 2019 7:14:58 GMT -5
We will know tomorrow. Here's my little secret, I did something I haven't done in maybe 15-18 years, I loaded some metal bullets! All metal as in CEB's. That's Cutting Edge Bullets. These were 200 gr Raptor HP's & I shot one group under an inch & another just slightly over an inch at 50 yds back to back. So, tomorrow I'll shoot some more of them along with 14 grs & 15 grs of Longshot with the 243 gr powder coated HP's. Now, here's my theory & it could be wrong, we'll know tomorrow, but I think it's the powder column in the case. When I shoot with a scope I use sandbags with a heavy piece of leather over the top bag & then a soft bag under the butt of the gun, I'm looking for the best accuracy the gun will do if it's scoped, other wise I shoot siting off of my knees. So here's my method, I fire the first round & the gun has to be elevated to be placed on the bags, that shot goes where I'm holding, pretty much dead center. After that I leave the gun on the bags & just cock it with my left thumb. You can see with 11, 12 & 13 grs the first shot went pretty much center & the other shots went high, indicating a powder column laying down in the bottom of the case, igniting slower & causing the bullet to impact high. Maybe, just maybe this is what's happening. Also it might be that a magnum primer might be of some help. We'll know tomorrow. It's either the scope, or the powder column.......isn't it? Dick I can't hold a candle in the wind to 99% of the forums expertise with all this. But I actually ran into this issue with 357 mag and Bullseye and w231 powder! What I ended up doing when shooting was tipping the muzzle high to have the powder fall to the back of the case, fire, and repeat. This brought my groups in considerably, but also made me lose interest in the load very quickly. I ended testing and never settling, yet, on a bunch of different loads including 2400 and w296/h110 to get a high case density with my powders. But, as others said, it could very well be the scope or the chambers, especially since when you went to metal bullets you saw consistency from the firearm again.
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Post by bradshaw on Oct 18, 2019 7:58:13 GMT -5
We will know tomorrow. Here's my little secret, I did something I haven't done in maybe 15-18 years, I loaded some metal bullets! All metal as in CEB's. That's Cutting Edge Bullets. These were 200 gr Raptor HP's & I shot one group under an inch & another just slightly over an inch at 50 yds back to back. So, tomorrow I'll shoot some more of them along with 14 grs & 15 grs of Longshot with the 243 gr powder coated HP's. Now, here's my theory & it could be wrong, we'll know tomorrow, but I think it's the powder column in the case. When I shoot with a scope I use sandbags with a heavy piece of leather over the top bag & then a soft bag under the butt of the gun, I'm looking for the best accuracy the gun will do if it's scoped, other wise I shoot siting off of my knees. So here's my method, I fire the first round & the gun has to be elevated to be placed on the bags, that shot goes where I'm holding, pretty much dead center. After that I leave the gun on the bags & just cock it with my left thumb. You can see with 11, 12 & 13 grs the first shot went pretty much center & the other shots went high, indicating a powder column laying down in the bottom of the case, igniting slower & causing the bullet to impact high. Maybe, just maybe this is what's happening. Also it might be that a magnum primer might be of some help. We'll know tomorrow. It's either the scope, or the powder column.......isn't it? Dick ***** Dick.... as you allude, VERTICAL STRINGING as a consequence of velocity spread is pronounced with heavy bullets in a handgun. Now, for persons who may not have been through the drill.... ChronographThe chronograph----and a note book----is your friend. A velocity spread of 100 to 150 fps from a 5-shot group plots the fastest shot @ 6 o’clock, the slowest shot @ 12 o’clock. Shots between string by velocity. Dry Fure, establish Point of Hammer FallWhen shooting off bags, it is my habit to DRY FIRE three to five “shots” prior to live fire. This illustrates my follow through and registers any shift at hammer fall. The cleanest representation of gun movement occurs when this is a fired case or snap cap cushions the firing pin, as this snuffs steel-on-steel vibration. Grip----moderate, consistentI grip a revolver so POI remains the same off the bag, from position, or offhand. Grips & GraspA smooth single action grip, grasped by a dead-dry hand, or dry, untreated leather glove exhibits just about zero friction; the revolver starts the upward roll of recoil before the bullet departs the muzzle. Garanteed to throw a shot. Certain weather condition, hot or cold, reduce tactile friction. Gloves treated with a proper leather treatment not only last much longer than dry leather, they enhance consistency. Chamber-to-Bore Alignment and Exit Hole diameterDoubt you have a stray chamber in the BFR. In fact, stray chambers are rare in most of the better revolvers. Also doubt the BFR has an issue with chamber-to-bore alignment (a.k.a. runout). And unlikely chamber exits holes are loose. BulletAccuracy of the bullet must be proven. Only and accurate revolver can do this. Out of balance bullets throw shotgun groups, they don’t fling a stray here or there. When you have a known accurate bullet, keep the load handy to benchmark an unknown bullet at the same shooting session. ScopeFirst step, check for parallax. Place revolver on sandbag or other fixed position and, without touching gun, check for parallax @ 50 or 100 yards. Note any movement of reticle on target. Try to note any parallax in inches @ target. If no parallax, shoot groups. Reticle jump comes in two flavors: 1) BACKLASH----during adjustment, reticle movement lags behind clicks. To compensate, always finalize adjustment turn in CLOCKWISE direction. Otherwise, reticle doesn’t settle until gun recoils! 2) Whether the adjustment is by friction or micrometer-click, unless reticle holds still, tight groups will be impossible. A tight group will be an anomaly, surrounded by loose groups. Given consistent hold, squeeze & follow through, a proper revolver with proper bullet, proper load, with proper sights, will shoot tight. The tight shooting will repeat. An alternative to remove backlash from a micro-click----after adjustment, tap scope ring with rubber hammer or piece of wood. A good scope can go south. I have yet to have this happen with a Leupold Extended Eye Relief scope, but have had it happen with others. Within the past year, I went through three scopes on a .44 Mag before returning to a 40 year old Leupold 2x19mm EER. It wears the original friction adjustment, which precludes counting up and down for long range. Which, in its application, doesn’t matter. As noted, any adjustment always ends up on the clockwise. David Bradshaw
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Post by sixshot on Oct 18, 2019 10:06:59 GMT -5
Thanks David, I was hoping you would jump in, it's always nice to have a professor in the room when the students are in class. Anyway, I will shoot again later today, I have a shooting class with 2 young ladies this morning (basketball) Yesterday when I first posted this I forgot to add the control load with the CEB bullets. It was 25 grs of H110 with the LONG 200 gr Rapto HP's & a magnum primer. These bullets are longer than my 243 gr lead HP's. So, they seat deeper. Here's another photo of the 2 groups shot with the 200 gr CEB HP's. I shot the first group, that measured under an inch, adjusted left & up a bit & fired the second group which ended up being a bit higher than I wanted. Anway you see the results with a full case of H110 & the magnum CCI primer. That has been my control load over the testing I've been doing. Although the scope hasn't been tracking exactly as advertised it does seem to be holding it's zero once I start shooting. The pattern has been first shot centered, next shots higher & touching, almost in the same hole & very good grouping. That very last group with 13 grs of Longshot is very respectable except for shot #1. Today I'll shoot 14 grs & 15 grs of Longshot & see if the pattern repeats itself then I'll shoot my control load with the CEB bullets again to see if accuracy is still the same & in the same place. If not, it's scope time!! Dick
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Post by ezekiel38 on Oct 18, 2019 10:48:46 GMT -5
Looks like we have a professor and a graduate student in the room, following this with much interest.
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Post by ezekiel38 on Oct 18, 2019 10:50:57 GMT -5
Looks like we have a professor and a graduate student in the room, following this with much interest. Very curious about Longshot as a 44 powder. I bought 2 lbs of it a couple of years ago and forgot what I bought it for. I think it was for a 40S&W I was loading for at the time.
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Post by sixshot on Oct 18, 2019 11:43:55 GMT -5
Remember also that John Taffin is also a teacher by profession & also as a life long shooter, his imput is very important here as well. Hoping he stays along for the ride as I'm sure he's experienced some of the same. I can also elevate the gun each shot but have no interest in doing that except to see if that takes care of the problem. Should know as soon as I finish my shooting class with the girls.
Dick
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Post by squigz on Oct 18, 2019 11:52:48 GMT -5
Remember also that John Taffin is also a teacher by profession & also as a life long shooter, his imput is very important here as well. Hoping he stays along for the ride as I'm sure he's experienced some of the same. I can also elevate the gun each shot but have no interest in doing that except to see if that takes care of the problem. Should know as soon as I finish my shooting class with the girls. Dick Yes, that's all I meant by that. It's not a solution to the problem at hand.
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