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Post by bigbrowndog on Sept 5, 2019 14:08:42 GMT -5
Ok the title should stir the pot well enough,........
I placed a call to CEB today to ask about some technical info on their bullets, and mentioned I was interested in the solid brass .510 projectiles both the 350gr HP and the 400gr solid for my 500L. I was informed that while the solid copper are ok for handgun use, the solid brass are,.......ILLEGAL!!!
I was stumped,....I’d NEVER heard that before!!!! Supposedly they’re considered AP projectiles, well damn. The only reason I was looking at the brass over the copper was due to nose length being .47 for the copper and it’s too long for my cylinder.
Am I just uninformed or did I miss something somewhere,....brass projectiles are ok in a rifle but not in a handgun?!?!
Trapr
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Post by magnumwheelman on Sept 5, 2019 14:14:45 GMT -5
I remember some brass solid pointed spitzer type bullets forget who made them, that quickly became unavailable... maybe because they could have been loaded in handguns, or even that they could be AP in rifles???
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Post by Encore64 on Sept 5, 2019 14:17:16 GMT -5
Many of our laws don't make sense. Lots of the Brass and AP Ammo will chamber and work fine in the Contenders and Encores chambered for rifle rounds.
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Post by CraigC on Sept 6, 2019 8:44:52 GMT -5
Why would the copper solid be okay but not the brass? The Punch bullet is brass. I'd order them and not worry about it. You're going to be on your own for load data anyway.
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Post by contender on Sept 6, 2019 9:15:08 GMT -5
Could it be due to the diameter? I was thinking,, (I know,, I know,,, that's dangerous,) that the ATF has a law in place that calibers that use a projectile over .500 are illegal? Would that,, combined with the materials be the issue? Just asking,, as I seem to recall something like this.
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Post by bigbrowndog on Sept 6, 2019 10:33:23 GMT -5
Craig, the biggest issue right now is that they claim the nose is .470, which puts it too long for my cylinder. I’m hoping it’s a typo on their spec sheet, I’ve got a request in to them to actually measure one of the bullets. .470 is OK for 500SW, but not 500L. .377 is what the use on the brass bullet, but the copper states .470, they list the .475L bullets correctly so I’m hoping it’s just a typo. But I’m waiting to hear back before purchasing the copper ones. Speaking of Punch, I’ve not been able to find any available, do you know where some are currently available??? On the brass being illegal, they offered no explanation except that they were illegal for handgun use? Pity because I think the 350gr brass HP might make a decent elk bullet, although I’d prefer a 400grHP. Trapr
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Post by bigbrowndog on Sept 6, 2019 10:42:12 GMT -5
I just got a reply back from CEB, the copper bullets do have a .470 nose. Nikki, from technical support stated that users are deep seating over the last band and crimping there and reporting no issues? Trapr
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Post by 98redline on Sept 6, 2019 17:06:57 GMT -5
I believe that the brass punch bullets that Belt Mountain produced are technically considered a hollowpoint. See that teeeny tiny little hole in the front of the pistol version of the punch bullet....yup, that makes it a hollowpoint, thus legal.
Without the "hollowpoint" designation the bullet is considered armor piercing under 18 USC 921(a)(17):
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Post by foxtrapper on Sept 6, 2019 17:25:28 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, the brass bullets have a shallow base that is filled with lead. It’s basically cosmetic but keeps the projectile legal.
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Post by bigbrowndog on Sept 6, 2019 20:02:32 GMT -5
Redline, according to the rule of law you posted, hollowpoint does not make it legal if it’s entirely made of brass. Which would be why CEB states the all brass line of bullets is illegal for use in a handgun, regardless if HP or Solid.
Trapr
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Post by tinkerpearce on Sept 6, 2019 23:24:11 GMT -5
In the 1980s there were teflon-coated monolithic brass bullets that, fired from a 9mm, .45 or .357 Magnum, would penetrate a then-standard police bullet-proof vest. Congress, in an attempt to appear useful, outlawed bullets as specified in the post above. This fear was not unfounded, but of course in passing the law all they really accomplished was to make the criminal element aware of these bullets. To the best of my knowledge such bullets had never previously been used to defeat bullet-proof vests. I'm not sure they've ever been used by criminals since then, of course. They did not make such bullets illegal for centerfire rifles because most hunting or military-caliber centerfire rifles would shoot through bullet-proof vests with their standard ammunition anyway.
As a cop I carried a single magazine in a pouch next to my handcuff case at the back. It was loaded with Teflon-coated solid-bronze hollow-points, made by IMI I believe, specifically for barricade and armor penetration. The hollow-point was shallow and sharp-edged, designed not for expansion but to make the bullet dig in to angled surfaces. From my 9mm service handgun they punched cookie-cutter holes in 1/4" steel plate. Of course nowadays they would be ineffective against the trauma plate of modern body armor.
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Post by foxtrapper on Sept 7, 2019 5:22:12 GMT -5
In the 1980s there were teflon-coated monolithic brass bullets that, fired from a 9mm, .45 or .357 Magnum, would penetrate a then-standard police bullet-proof vest. Congress, in an attempt to appear useful, outlawed bullets as specified in the post above. This fear was not unfounded, but of course in passing the law all they really accomplished was to make the criminal element aware of these bullets. To the best of my knowledge such bullets had never previously been used to defeat bullet-proof vests. I'm not sure they've ever been used by criminals since then, of course. They did not make such bullets illegal for centerfire rifles because most hunting or military-caliber centerfire rifles would shoot through bullet-proof vests with their standard ammunition anyway. As a cop I carried a single magazine in a pouch next to my handcuff case at the back. It was loaded with Teflon-coated solid-bronze hollow-points, made by IMI I believe, specifically for barricade and armor penetration. The hollow-point was shallow and sharp-edged, designed not for expansion but to make the bullet dig in to angled surfaces. From my 9mm service handgun they punched cookie-cutter holes in 1/4" steel plate. Of course nowadays they would be ineffective against the trauma plate of modern body armor. I believe those were KTW bullets!
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Post by 500fksjr on Sept 7, 2019 5:41:01 GMT -5
Craig, the biggest issue right now is that they claim the nose is .470, which puts it too long for my cylinder. I’m hoping it’s a typo on their spec sheet, I’ve got a request in to them to actually measure one of the bullets. .470 is OK for 500SW, but not 500L. .377 is what the use on the brass bullet, but the copper states .470, they list the .475L bullets correctly so I’m hoping it’s just a typo. But I’m waiting to hear back before purchasing the copper ones. Speaking of Punch, I’ve not been able to find any available, do you know where some are currently available??? On the brass being illegal, they offered no explanation except that they were illegal for handgun use? Pity because I think the 350gr brass HP might make a decent elk bullet, although I’d prefer a 400grHP. Trapr Last known source for PUNCH BULLETS was Cast Performance Bullet company out of Org.
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Post by mobjack on Sept 7, 2019 8:53:43 GMT -5
As Tinker posted, the so called "Cop Killer" bullets by KTW, were the genesis of the Armor Piercing ammo laws. The hysteria generated by 60 Minutes with their expose' of the dangers of the Teflon coated bullets, caused the poorly written law to be passed. So any cartridge that can be fired in a "handgun" that has a "solid-metal" bullet, is AP, and thus banned. Copper, *can* expand, while brass, steel *cannot* expand, so become armor piercing. (The wording may not be exactly correct, but the meaning is.) Some states even passed laws adding the word "Teflon" to the banned bullet list. The "Black Talons" are an example of the banned bullet hysteria generated laws. They too were banned by name is some/few states. This is the same bullet, sans coating, that is used in Winchester's Ranger STX ammo.
Also, 7.62X39 steel cored ammo, along with 7.62X51 AP rifle ammo was added to the banned handgun ammo list, due to "handguns" being chambered for those calibers. As soon as some yahoo chambers a "pistol" in a rifle cartridge (see Olympic Arms), that cartridge gets added to the list. Some how 5.56 green tip, is not on the banned handgun AP ammo list.
Mobjack
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Post by cas on Sept 8, 2019 17:29:13 GMT -5
AP rifle ammo is okay, AP handgun ammo no bueno. Punch bullet... They're not solid brass.
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