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Post by 454blaster on Aug 18, 2019 12:14:24 GMT -5
Hoping for some help diagnosing an issue I encountered today. I recently acquired a Seville stainless in 357 Maximum with a 7.5 inch barrel. I was able to shoot it today for the first time. The first 6 shots fired with no apparent problem but during the second cylinder full one round didn’t go off. Upon inspection, the primer did not have any mark on it. The firing pin hit the case outside of the primer pocket area. I checked the first 6 cases and one of them had a primer strike that was just inside the primer area. Any idea why it would do this? I fired 12 more rounds without the issue repeating. The empty cases all appear to be formed correctly with uniform primer pockets. Thanks for your help.
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Post by Encore64 on Aug 18, 2019 12:24:28 GMT -5
That sounds like a serious timing issue. Is the bolt locking into the cylinder notch every time it's cocked?
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Post by 454blaster on Aug 18, 2019 12:39:43 GMT -5
I tried cocking the hammer very gently to see if it might be failing to fully engage the cylinder stop on any of the chambers but it never failed to lock completely on each one. There doesn’t seem to be any excessive cylinder play either. Also there is only a faint turn ring on the cylinder from being cycled.
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Post by Encore64 on Aug 18, 2019 12:44:23 GMT -5
Interesting... Will be watching this thread for input from those who know more than me.
I can't imagine what else could cause those strikes that far off center.
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Post by Ken O'Neill on Aug 18, 2019 12:49:13 GMT -5
I agree that it is likely a timing issue. Cock it in the normal fashion (no lollygagging) then check to see if the cylinder will rotate any further to lock. I had an early 10.5" SRM that would fail to lock in place if cocked very slowly, and I've seen the same on other Ruger SRM's.
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Post by Encore64 on Aug 18, 2019 12:50:51 GMT -5
I agree that it is likely a timing issue. Cock it in the normal fashion (no lollygagging) then check to see if the cylinder will rotate any further to lock. I had an early 10.5" SRM that would fail to lock in place if cocked very slowly, and I've seen the same on other Ruger SRM's. I was also curious if the cylinder failed to rotate fully or over rotated. I've heard some of the long, heavy cylinders over rotating when loaded. The extra weight of the heavy cylinder, combined with the ammo, cause momentum to take over past locking.
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Post by Encore64 on Aug 18, 2019 13:06:01 GMT -5
Might also be worthwhile to pull the cylinder and inspect that forcing cone. If those bullets hit off center....
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Post by 454blaster on Aug 18, 2019 13:09:36 GMT -5
I just tried working the action firmly and it locks up solid each time. I did forget to mention that when starting to cock the hammer it seems like the first notch in the cycle is harder than the rest. Since this is my first Maximum I kinda thought that this was normal since the cylinder is so long and heavy.
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Post by 454blaster on Aug 18, 2019 13:21:54 GMT -5
Inspection of the forcing cone shows no signs of lead shaving or off centered hits.
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Post by oddshooter on Aug 19, 2019 9:47:47 GMT -5
The other possibility is a firing pin problem. Is it striking consistently in the same spot and with the same weight? My abilene's have seen problems with the transfer bar safety as well.
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Post by bradshaw on Aug 19, 2019 10:41:54 GMT -5
Hoping for some help diagnosing an issue I encountered today. I recently acquired a Seville stainless in 357 Maximum with a 7.5 inch barrel. I was able to shoot it today for the first time. The first 6 shots fired with no apparent problem but during the second cylinder full one round didn’t go off. Upon inspection, the primer did not have any mark on it. The firing pin hit the case outside of the primer pocket area. I checked the first 6 cases and one of them had a primer strike that was just inside the primer area. Any idea why it would do this? I fired 12 more rounds without the issue repeating. The empty cases all appear to be formed correctly with uniform primer pockets. Thanks for your help. ***** Nothing takes the place of having the revolver in hand to diagnose problems. To judge by your description, it sounds like CARRY-UP. Carry-up is manufacturer jargon for TIMING, and both terms often imply late timing, as in failure of cylinder to advance to lock at or before HAMMER FALL. Many single actions, and it is rife with Nthe Ruger New Model, fail to index when the hammer is cocked very slowly, or the cocking motion stops exactly at full cock, or there is drag on the cylinder. Normal cocking overcomes later carry-up, as the flywheel effect of the rotating cylinder insures it continues until stopped by the CYNLINDER CATCH (aka BOLT). The Ruger New Model is the hardest of all single actions to “short cock” when handled improperly. Revolvers are designed to function LOCK-to-LOCK; the cocking stoke begins hammer down, cylinder locked. It is easy to set up an out-of-battery discharge or out-of-battery misfire with Peacemeker lockwork. It is very difficult to do with the Ruger New Model. Generally with the New Model, you can close the loading gate----which raises the bolt----between notches, then cock the revolver to fire with lockup. Try that stunt with a peacemaker and you may produce an out-of-battery discharge or misfire. Sig Himmelmann appropriated Bill Ruger’s New Model transfer bar----while patents were still in effect----which allows carry loaded all-up. You did not say whether, in your method of shooting, you may have manipulated the the action or cocked very slowly on a couple of rounds. This is a case where it helps to see the shooter in action. With your Seville unloaded and pointed in a safe direction, I would: * cock it briskly, 12 times. Check cylinder lockup after each cock. Cylinder should carry to lockup. * cock revolver very slowly, stop immediately at full cock. If carry-up is at issue, note distance each chamber must advance to reach lockup. Before this little test of carry-up, aka timing, lubricate cylinder pin, ratchet, and run a drop of oil down the hammer. After that, please report back, David Bradshaw
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Post by 45dragoon on Aug 20, 2019 9:59:16 GMT -5
Dang Mr. Bradshaw, I swear I'm not picking on you!! Lol But, I do want to set the record straight as to "carry-up" and "timing".
"Carry-up" is essentially cylinder rotation but more precisely the "carrying up" of the chamber into battery. "Timing" is the "when" of the action parts performing their jobs as a function of the hammer being rotated to full cock. You could also add to this the return of the hammer to rest as the bolt arm (or hammer plunger in Ruger type actions) "resets" near the end of travel (since this is adjustable, it would be considered part of tuning as well). Timing is primarily marked as the "bolt drop", being early or late in respect to the locking notch "approach" (the ramp section preceding the notch). If there is no approach, typically 1 - 1 1/2 bolt widths before the notch (in a traditional Colt type action ). Bolt drop can only be set after the hand length has been set. Shortening or stretching the hand will influence the spot where the bolt drop occurs. Hand length is correct when the chamber is in battery when the sear engages the full cock notch and the bolt head fully engages the locking notch. Once that is found, bolt "drop" can be set.
So, just for some clarification, there is a little difference between "carry-up" and "timing".
As for the diagnosis for the O.P.s question, I agree that it is definitely a timing issue or possibly a hand spring issue. If the hand spring is weak or cracked, you will most likely experience throw-by (cyl over rotation). This would more likely occur during "normal " cycling as the braking force (the second job of the hand) is deminished or non-egistant. Cycling slow will keep the cyl momentum low and function correctly as will faster thumbing of the hammer because it will get to "end of cycle" and allow lockup.
You're right though, it's much easier with the revolver in hand!!
Mike
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Post by 454blaster on Aug 20, 2019 17:25:45 GMT -5
Thanks for each of your inputs so far. As an update I have tried lightly cocking the hammer and forcefully cocking the hammer with the gun loaded and unloaded with no under or over rotating. I cycled thru every chamber with resistance from my thumb and forefinger on the cylinder and it never failed to lock correctly. I can only figure it needs a good cleaning because it has seen very minimal use. That will be my next move.
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Post by 45dragoon on Aug 20, 2019 19:04:37 GMT -5
454blaster, did you try normal cycling with 2 weighted rounds next to each other (preferably dummies) and not dragging a finger? It could definitely be the handspring.
Mike
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Post by bradshaw on Aug 20, 2019 20:27:03 GMT -5
Mike, aka 45 dragoon.... at all hazards, I appreciate your positive criticism. I fully realize carry-up is mere aspect of timing. As you state, timing covers the mechanical action of a revolver throughout the cocking stroke, covering both single and double action. In the jargon of the trade, “carry-up” very often implies late or incomplete rotation of cylinder.
I further appreciate the time you take to help illustrate mechanics which many revolver shooters spend their life throwing lead without quite understanding. Firearms are an instrument many want to project knowledge of, yet relatively few possess. Those growing under the wings of sharpshooters learn to listen, then prove themselves on the Firing Line. I wouldn’t trade that for anything.
It’s a long time since I shot a Sig Himmelmann revolver. I could never trust an El Dorado or Seville as thoroughly as I did a Ruger. For all my criticism of individual examples of Ruger revolvers, no other sixgun garnered its mileage on the firing line. I always find on the firing line something on a revolver to criticize. Yet my most forthright critic, Bill Ruger, never questioned my shooting. To learn a little about his instruments in real time was a gift which cannot be bought.
Little details like a burr here or there, a week spring, a hole drilled slightly out of alignment, these things can doom correct operation.
454blaster.... your latest note forces me to ask, is the cylinder locked when you start to cock the revolver? Always? If not, the cylinder may fail to index, a shooter-induced carry-up problem. David Bradshaw
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