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Post by bigbrowndog on Sept 14, 2019 14:21:34 GMT -5
Resurrecting this since I’ve got more developments. The stouter crimp did nothing significant to velocities or Accuracy for loads I’d already developed and shot. One load was a 530gr. cast LFN, it had delivered very good accuracy and consistent velocities in my 500Max, velocities in the past consistently averaged 1040fps and accuracy has been 5” at 75yds, this last outing gave 1018fps for a low and 1034fps for a high, the average of the 5 rounds chrono’d was 1031fps and the five rounds landed in a 7” group at 100 yards. The next loads were new ones using jacketed bullets by Hawk, the bullets have terminally performed very well, as well as being accurate. My issue is thecannelure seems to not provide enough grip for the crimp to hold the bullet for more than 2 rounds. Consequently I am unable to fully achieve top velocities from my 500Max using these bullets. 34gr. of H4227 with the 450gr. JHP provided 1155fps average, and good accuracy 3-4” at 65yds, for this load the new stouter crimp held for a full 5 rounds. Velocity average difference was inconsequential, originally being 1147fps average and this time 1155fps. Stepping up the load one grain to 35gr. H4227, produced an increase of velocity, but after 3 rounds the remaining two rounds had slipped approx. 1/10 of an inch. The velocities recorded were 1247, 1221, 1225. This load would be a great one for large game if bullet slip could be eliminated, I’m hoping by switching to Swift 450gr. Lever action bullets with a deep cannelure groove I can eliminate bullet creep, some Woodleigh 440gr. SP feature the same type groove both will be tried next. The option of using a two style crimp (taper and roll) is still not being used yet as locating a suitable taper crimp die for 500L hasn’t been successful.
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Post by bigbrowndog on Sept 14, 2019 14:29:07 GMT -5
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Post by bigbrowndog on Sept 14, 2019 20:19:39 GMT -5
Something that seems to provide more neck tension, is resizing half the case with a 348win. die, and then bell the mouth for accepting the bullet. The 348 has more body taper than the 500Max and it looks li,e it may help??? We will find out Tuesday at the range.
Trapr
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Post by wheelguns on Sept 15, 2019 4:10:55 GMT -5
I try to expand .002” smaller than bullet diameter. This has always worked for me. I buy noe wxpander plugs and use them in a lee universal expanding die. Not only does this give you the proper neck tension, but it also prevents cast bullets from being swaged down when seating.
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Ramar
.30 Stingray
Posts: 399
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Post by Ramar on Sept 15, 2019 7:26:10 GMT -5
This is an interesting thread, Trapr. Thanks for starting and updating it. Crimp is always a nebulous criteria for me. Too much, too little or just right? Curious to see what you come up with.
Encore, I'd like to try your roll crimp followed by a taper crimp. What would you think of roll crimping 45 Colt with a Redding Profile Crimp die, then using a 45 ACP crimp die to apply taper? Just tried gently pushing some loaded 45 Colt into the ACP crimp die but I'm leery of squeezing the bullet and losing neck tension.
Also, thanks for the pics, Trapr. Since you use Google Photos, you can import them to the board here by:
Opening the picture in photos.google.com on your computer.
Right click mouse (or two finger click on trackpad).
Select “Copy Image Address” from the drop-down menu.
Come back to this forum. In the “Reply” box where you type message, click on the “Insert Image” box that looks like a mountain/landscape photo. It’s 7 boxes/icons in from the right.
The line that says, “Image URL” will already be highlighted. Paste your image address (Command V or Control V or select “Edit-Paste” from your browser menu). Click “Insert Image.”
If you want to try this but it isn't clear, please let me know.
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Post by foxtrapper on Sept 15, 2019 10:48:14 GMT -5
Resurrecting this since I’ve got more developments. The stouter crimp did nothing significant to velocities or Accuracy for loads I’d already developed and shot. One load was a 530gr. cast LFN, it had delivered very good accuracy and consistent velocities in my 500Max, velocities in the past consistently averaged 1040fps and accuracy has been 5” at 75yds, this last outing gave 1018fps for a low and 1034fps for a high, the average of the 5 rounds chrono’d was 1031fps and the five rounds landed in a 7” group at 100 yards. The next loads were new ones using jacketed bullets by Hawk, the bullets have terminally performed very well, as well as being accurate. My issue is thecannelure seems to not provide enough grip for the crimp to hold the bullet for more than 2 rounds. Consequently I am unable to fully achieve top velocities from my 500Max using these bullets. 34gr. of H4227 with the 450gr. JHP provided 1155fps average, and good accuracy 3-4” at 65yds, for this load the new stouter crimp held for a full 5 rounds. Velocity average difference was inconsequential, originally being 1147fps average and this time 1155fps. Stepping up the load one grain to 35gr. H4227, produced an increase of velocity, but after 3 rounds the remaining two rounds had slipped approx. 1/10 of an inch. The velocities recorded were 1247, 1221, 1225. This load would be a great one for large game if bullet slip could be eliminated, I’m hoping by switching to Swift 450gr. Lever action bullets with a deep cannelure groove I can eliminate bullet creep, some Woodleigh 440gr. SP feature the same type groove both will be tried next. The option of using a two style crimp (taper and roll) is still not being used yet as locating a suitable taper crimp die for 500L hasn’t been successful. Reeder has hornady 510 taper crimp dies for his 510 gnr which I use with great success! Heavy roll crimp with tight custom chambers made me nutz! Finally figured out full sizing no belling, then inside chamfering of the case for the most neck tension I can get without shaving the bullet. I then taper crimp. Should work beautifully with the 500 linebaugh and 500 max. Good luck!
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Post by bigbrowndog on Sept 15, 2019 10:56:09 GMT -5
Thanks foxtrapper, I’ll give Gary a ring Monday.
Trapr
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Post by bigbrowndog on Sept 15, 2019 11:08:25 GMT -5
Ramar, perhaps using an Apple Ipad complicates things but no luck on loading an actual Image only a link. trapr
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Ramar
.30 Stingray
Posts: 399
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Post by Ramar on Sept 15, 2019 12:11:30 GMT -5
Well shucks, trapr. Sorry it didn't work. Ipads and smartphones confuse the heck outa me.
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Post by bigbrowndog on Sept 18, 2019 15:21:26 GMT -5
I may have figured out my bullet creep problem. I did some comparisons between my 50 alaskan and 500L/500Max dies and fired and sized cases. Since they all shoot the same caliber bullets, I measured the case mouths of sized cases both at the actual mouth and about 3/8 of an inch back. The 50 Alaskan dies size cases to .525 OD, the dies for the 500L/500Max size the case to .535. The measurement of the case with a bullet seated is .537, for both the 50 Alaskan and the revolver cases. So I’d say there is considerably more neck tension with the 50 Alaskan than the revolver rounds. In an attempt to reduce the sized case diameter at the mouth, I took a 348win. die and sized the revolver cases down .60 of an inch down the case length, this reduced case OD down to .525, where the bullet will sit, there is a noticeable taper to the case since the 348win case is heavily tapered. Running the bullet into the case, there is significantly more pressure needed to seat it. I loaded 6 with a normal heavy crimp and will leave one in the cylinder for 5 rounds and check if the increased neck tension will help with bullet creep. I used the Hawk bullets that seemed to creep easily so..............Hopefully problem solved, and velocities can be increased beyond medium 500L level.
Update after another range trip, Trapr
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Post by bigbrowndog on Sept 23, 2019 19:50:40 GMT -5
Got back from an afternoon at the range, I’ll need to go back since I left a box of ammo at home, but I did shoot my 4” 500L and my 5.5” 500Max. Using the new cases that were sized using the 348win. die on the top half of the case and then applying a good firm roll crimp. 450 Swift AF, 35gr. H4227 gave 1250fps, and I placed one round in the cylinder for a full 5 shots with no slippage or at least nothing noticeable. 430 Woodleigh SP, 35gr. H4227 gave 1200fps, and again keeping one round in the cylinder for 5 shots, showed no slippage In the 500L 30gr. H4227 and the 450gr. Hawk JHP, still getting slippage butthe ammo stays ok for 3 shots, I expected slippage from the Hawk bullet, the cannelure is shallow. The Swift and Woodleigh bullets use a good deep groove that I figured would give a much more positive grip to the case mouth, the Hawk bullets will get used up and only place 3 in the cylinder at a time, luckily they were purchased for medium game and I’m not concerned with slippage creating a dangerous situation during a hunt. The Swift’s and Woodleighs will become my go to big game bullets, it’ll be interesting to see what kind of penetration and expansion will occur considering both are really rifle bullets. photos.app.goo.gl/Ubt4t8xWg3LxqD4K6Trapr
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Ramar
.30 Stingray
Posts: 399
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Post by Ramar on Sept 25, 2019 7:09:24 GMT -5
Sounds like you're thinking outside the box and on track to find a crimp solution, Trapr. Great-looking 5-guns. The Vaquero (?) with octagon barrel and gray grips has special appeal. If you could provide details please? Looks like it means business!
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Post by magnumwheelman on Sept 25, 2019 7:18:07 GMT -5
so... assuming all the cases are the same brand... are they all new??? reloading cases several times may / will effect elasticity of the brass, & may effect bullet creep... if they are all unfired cases... then carry on
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Post by bigbrowndog on Sept 25, 2019 13:44:29 GMT -5
Magnum,....some are Hornady 500Max cases and loaded a few times, some were 50 Alaskan cases converted to 500Max and unfired Starline. The Starline actually had less neck tension once they were run thru the 500L dies than the previously fired Hornady cases. The 500L cases were a mix of new and previously fired Starline. I’m just glad that I am able to get above 1200fps with jacketed bullets and not have bullet creep. The cast bullets have been able to go to 1300fps with no issues, however they are sized .512 and have well defined crimp grooves. The Swift and Woodeleigh jacketed are .510 or .509, with well defined crimp grooves, but the Hawk is simply knurling and apparently does not provide enough grip for the crimp with the neck tension applied using just the 500L dies.
Ramar, the 4” 500L is a JRH gun, it has an untapered octagon barrel, a modified topstrap of my own doing to improve the sight picture, a Recknagel front sight that is a solid white blade but can be changed to a fiber optic if desired. The grips are black and gray micarta that I leave unpolished for a more textured grip, very much like 1000 grit sandpaper. After firing the gun with polished grips and sweaty hands, I much prefer the increase in textured surface provided by the unpolished micarta. JRH told me recently during a phone call that he gets a lot of questions about my little black gun from customers,....he called it Bear Spray, a name which I thought quite appropriate. The whole gun is Black nitride, and slightly round butted. It is one of my most worn guns while hunting, using the Thad Rybka holster in the picture it has proven quite comfortable for all day carry during western hunts and walking for miles. I was hoping to get 1200fps with 450gr. bullets, but 1100fps is the best I can accomplish with max loads of H4227.
Trapr
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Ramar
.30 Stingray
Posts: 399
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Post by Ramar on Sept 25, 2019 16:56:25 GMT -5
Trapr, thanks for the detail on Bear Spray. What an appropriate name! Not surprising Jack gets lots of queries on it.
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