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Post by webber on Jun 28, 2019 4:35:36 GMT -5
Is there a better bullet than the Lyman 429421/H&G 503 as far as a longer range bullet in the 44 Mag. Some seem to think there is. If so what is the better design in weights around 250 or 260 grains? Keeping in mind that it may be used for game at normal ranges while doing duty as a plinking/target bullet at 200 or more yards.
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Post by bula on Jun 28, 2019 7:42:24 GMT -5
I'll say yes, then go run and hide ! There are more than a few here with way more experience and shooting skill I'll leave to name bullets for ya.
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Post by bula on Jun 28, 2019 7:58:55 GMT -5
Feller named John Ross has an article. Addresses your question somewhat. Without a stack of targets with little bitty groups to back me up, Matt's bullets has a 275gr GC HP that has potential IMHO. I like his 250gr HP, and this should be better yet for distance, and work on game too.
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jgt
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Post by jgt on Jun 28, 2019 8:26:15 GMT -5
It depends on what you are shooting and what you are shooting the bullets in. In a 44 magnum revolver, there are plenty of bullets to choose from that do well. There are none better than the 429421/H&G 503. If you are using them in a Marlin Model 1894 rifle in 44 magnum then it will give you fits trying to get it to work well. Then bullets designed by J.D. Jones, Richard Lee, and Viral Smith work better. You can punch paper out to 200 yards with any of them.
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Post by webber on Jul 1, 2019 12:24:39 GMT -5
I guess no one want's to discuss this subject. Sorry, just wondering about what I have read.
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Post by boolitdesigner on Jul 1, 2019 12:47:45 GMT -5
I guess no one want's to discuss this subject. Sorry, just wondering about what I have read. It is a controversial subject. One guy says a certain bullet shoots great, but has never shot it past 50 yards or a 100 yards (take your pick).... another says the same thing, shorter or longer distance involved. Great is different to different people.... where one guy says 2 inches at 25 yards, another says 2 inches at 50 yards and another dedicated fellow might say 2 inches at 100 yards (all of this is relative.. great can be much bigger to some). Put that same bullet in a rifle that has good sights and you can get below M.O.A. Alloy plays a big part in accuracy, but fit to the chamber / throat area pays bigger dividends. Myself. I tend toward small groups at longer distances with actual performance from the bullet on game to be my pick of what I want to shoot. As to your question, it is an excellent bullet, but it can be outdone where accuracy and game performance are concerned.
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Post by webber on Jul 1, 2019 12:55:46 GMT -5
While I failed to mention it I meant in revolvers.
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Fowler
.401 Bobcat
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Post by Fowler on Jul 1, 2019 14:33:59 GMT -5
OK here is my two cents:
Not all "Keith bullets" are A: true to Keith's spec, many are more semi wadcutters really B: nor equal. I have a pile of "Keith" style molds and some are wonderfully accurate and some are hopelessly useless.
I have found that without a doubt if I had to get a revolver to shoot on the first bullet I tried I would reach for an LFN styled bullet. They just have an excellent balance, they tend to be very forgiving when loading and just shoot well in just about every gun I have ever shot them in. A good Keith bullet might out shoot it but it would the exception not the rule in my
Now being a fan of Elmer my standard 44 cal 255gr bullet is the Miha copy of the H&G 503 that I run out of my #5, wouldnt be right to shoot anything else regularly from the gun. Although in that gun it is an excellent bullet and my LFN bullets will not out shoot it at any ranges I have tried it at (well over 100 yards). You may find different things.
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Post by bula on Jul 2, 2019 7:40:09 GMT -5
Gotta admit when I saw the first pic of the Bradshaw-Martin 357 Max bullet, to see a SWC nose profile. And yet..
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Post by webber on Jul 2, 2019 7:46:25 GMT -5
The reason I asked this one of the premier mold makers who doesn't push any particular design said he, in his own experience, did not find the "Keith" bullet design, whatever that has become, to be as accurate as some others. Now, I know, that there are variations on the Keith over the years but, I thought some on here would jump in and give some ideas. But I guess it is better to keep ones mouth shut and not ruffle any feathers, I get that. Thanks anyway.
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jgt
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Post by jgt on Jul 2, 2019 7:59:18 GMT -5
You know? Maybe you should do just that. Then, maybe go out and shoot different bullet in the gun you use and find out what works for you. Then you would not have to ask us and be disappointed when your expectations are not met. Good luck with that.
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Post by contender on Jul 2, 2019 8:19:47 GMT -5
Read what Fowler said; Not all bullets that tout being Keith bullets are true to his design.
And as noted above,, there are too many variables to have one size fits all. You mentioned "longer range,, and yet,, when boolitdesigner mentions it,, you seem to ignore his good info. And as Fowler says,, one bullet seems to do good in many guns,, and yet,, another bullet outperforms in a different gun.
My point is that there are way too many variables to find the "perfect" bullet. The Keith bullet is very good in many guns,, but may not be the best all around. And when keith designed it,, there weren't many folks designing bullets for serious long range handgunning.
Experimentation is the key. Find what works for YOU in YOUR gun.
Kinda like grips,, as our hands are all different.
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Post by boolitdesigner on Jul 2, 2019 8:48:54 GMT -5
The reason I asked this one of the premier mold makers who doesn't push any particular design said he, in his own experience, did not find the "Keith" bullet design, whatever that has become, to be as accurate as some others. Now, I know, that there are variations on the Keith over the years but, I thought some on here would jump in and give some ideas. But I guess it is better to keep ones mouth shut and not ruffle any feathers, I get that. Thanks anyway. First blue highlight comments: Keith shot a lead/tin alloy at higher pistol pressures. His design was VERY GOOD for that. It's still good, but most everyone has a fascination with hard or painted bullets now. Extremely few people know how the original design worked or why, they just know it works (except the ones that have been changed too much). Yes, there are better designs, but you say very little about what you want to do with one or your ability to use it. Nobody is able to read your mind. Second blue highlight comments: That's uncalled for! You'll get more information stating what you want to do, with what and some detail of your ability to do so. Why don't you tell us.
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Post by bradshaw on Jul 2, 2019 9:35:45 GMT -5
A variety of cast profiles have been campaigned with excellence in IHMSA silhouette. The mold must cast concentric bullets. A bullet slightly heavier on one side falls victim to centrifugal force once it departs the muzzle (flywheel effect). Configuration must push Center-of-Form (COF) apart from Center-of-Gravity (COG). Example: a wadcutter puts COF and COG in the same place, with consequent instability at long range. As an innovative and serious student of marksmanship, Elmer Keith made huge strides in dispelling the myth that a revolver is a close range instrument only. Keith did not invent long range handgunning. Rifled barrels opened the door to experimentation by unnamed primitives, of which we are descendants, to test & develop our skill.
Bullet design is one thing, how it falls from the mold, fits the gun, and holds dynamic flight honor, or disrespect, the target to tell us whether we keep shooting it. David Bradshaw
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Post by oddshooter on Jul 2, 2019 10:16:12 GMT -5
I've shot about 8 different "Keith style" bullets sold by manufacturers in 357mag and 44mag. I'm just guessing, but I don't think many of them adhered to the original Keith. I shot them in the same recipe against a dozen other bullets and found them lacking in my guns compared to the others. I was SHOCKED. I have read the Keith books and heard the stories. I chased my tail trying to figure out why. Slugging barrels, pin gauging cylinders, and measuring diameters. After a year or so and engaging in many conversations, I finally just accepted my excellent results from other designs and moved on.
I still have no idea why the magic bullet did not work for me as well as the others.
Prescut
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