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Post by 2 Dogs on Jun 11, 2019 11:56:54 GMT -5
I started a couple of group buys featuring lighter weight bullets for the .500" and .512" bores today. Some of us have been discussing the success of the 480 Ruger with the 385 grain Miha HP traveling in the 1100 fps range pretty much killing and penetrating all the bigger critters in the USA and doing it without all the blast/horsepower/recoil the full on 475/500 big bore loads bring to the field. My own pet load with my 475 Linebaugh was a 420 grain bullet at 1350 fps and I just can't imagine the 480/385/1100 Miha combination could run with it. But there it is.
Note that the new Ruger 454 and 480 do not have the oversize cylinder. Nor do they have a bolt bearing block. Kind of makes you wonder if all of that is really necessary. For years now Reeder has built his big bore 5 shot conversions without the oversize cylinders. Some guys even have .480's on the Ruger mid size Flattop frames.
This should be some interesting discussion....
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Post by bula on Jun 11, 2019 12:11:49 GMT -5
Where at are you sizing those 385gr hP's for your BSBH's ?
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Post by webber on Jun 11, 2019 12:35:56 GMT -5
I know this question will be ignored but here goes. A .475" caliber bullet at 385 grains weight is equal to a 315 gr bullet in a 44 Mag if one looks at sectional density so would a 385 grain bullet be considered a "lighter" weight bullet. I guess that depends on what one calls heavy. I know that there are heavier .475" bullets than 385 grain and heavier 44 caliber bullets than 315 grains. So what wont a 385 gr 475 caliber bullet not kill? Or a 315 grain 44 caliber bullet not kill provided high marksmanship is involved?
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Shakey
.327 Meteor
Central Arkansas
Posts: 543
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Post by Shakey on Jun 11, 2019 13:14:37 GMT -5
Webber, I'm not sure this is the direction the Dogs wants to carry this discussion but I too have thought that comparing sectional densities between different diameter bullets should give some idea of the performance to expect. I have made various tables and curves trying to see if our "standard" bullet weights have similar SDs but have not found much correlation.
Think I'll try and find those old spreadsheets and look at them again.
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Post by webber on Jun 11, 2019 13:30:19 GMT -5
Why not just figure the sectional densities for the weights and calibers to compare them? That is what I did on the examples I gave. Webber, I'm not sure this is the direction the Dogs wants to carry this discussion but I too have thought that comparing sectional densities between different diameter bullets should give some idea of the performance to expect. I have made various tables and curves trying to see if our "standard" bullet weights have similar SDs but have not found much correlation. Think I'll try and find those old spreadsheets and look at them again.
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Post by 2 Dogs on Jun 11, 2019 13:39:58 GMT -5
I know this question will be ignored but here goes. A .475" caliber bullet at 385 grains weight is equal to a 315 gr bullet in a 44 Mag if one looks at sectional density so would a 385 grain bullet be considered a "lighter" weight bullet. I guess that depends on what one calls heavy. I know that there are heavier .475" bullets than 385 grain and heavier 44 caliber bullets than 315 grains. So what wont a 385 gr 475 caliber bullet not kill? Or a 315 grain 44 caliber bullet not kill provided high marksmanship is involved? Why would you think it would be ignored? We are all friends here! Even me and CraigC!! Speaking for myself, I tell guys I have never shot a Cape Buffalo, or an Elk, or a Moose, or a Bear, or even a Freight Train. But what I have shot is trap after trap of trapped pissed off and pretty excited hogs of all sizes. I have shot them with my big guns and my 32's with 100 grain bullets. I have shot them in Senderos and in fact shot quite a few with my 44 Mags with a heavily loaded 315 grain bullets. I shot several from seated back rest with the sixgun in between my knees and that 315 whistled right through them. The only ones I dropped that stayed dropped were the ones I head shot. As far as I know the others are still running. I'm not saying a 315 is bad in a 44, but I am saying that particular bullet, which was a big long gas check SWC isn't going hunting with me anymore despite the fact that it was tremendously accurate and sounded like a broken baseball bat when it hit. If I hunt with a bullet that heavy in my 44's anymore in my area it will be about 10 BHN possibly a GC and definitely a HOLLOW POINT. Now, I will say over the years I have been taken to task and have gotten into some "discussions" with some who claim I must not be able to track game. Well, here in S. Texas you ain't tracking over snow, you can't go where that critter did without getting full of thorns so you have to circle around to pick up the trail, and more and more people claim our Rattlesnakes don't rattle anymore. I tell what else they don't do, and that's negotiate. And we have some big ones. So, make my 44 caliber 315 a big old hollow point bullet cast to shed it's nose into shards that might find the brain pan or spine and a shank that will exit and make a good blood trail.
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Post by ss30378 on Jun 11, 2019 13:43:13 GMT -5
How much over sized is the cylinder for 5 shot custom guns? I have both 454 and 480 bisley models, and I know they run the "super duper" 465 carpenter steel but how much extra strength is gained i'm not sure. I had Reeder put his "beefy" six shot cylinder in my 357 blackhawk and that was .040 larger in diameter than the factory and nearly the full window length. I can load past 1.8" now.
I've loaded 410s to 1300fps in the 480 and recoil was rather brisk in the lightweight bisley so knowing I can back them off a couple hundred fps and not really loose much is great to know.
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Post by 2 Dogs on Jun 11, 2019 13:44:50 GMT -5
Where at are you sizing those 385gr hP's for your BSBH's ? They should be sized to fit your particular throats.
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Post by magnumwheelman on Jun 11, 2019 14:28:53 GMT -5
Hmmm... I like big bores, & had one of the 1st converted 5 shot 50 caliber Super Blackhawks that I was aware of ( Mine was 50 A.E. long before the long list of current 50 caliber cartridges )... but I also like my small bore revolvers as well... can we agree at "some point" bullet diameter can somewhat replace bullet velocity as far as performance on "game" ? I like to talk about the possum problem we used to have on the farm... before MRS & I moved in, & were continually cleaning up harborage areas, I seemed like I was constantly shooting possums with my 4" GP-100... those factory cheap 158's had me chasing after them, when shot COM... often they disappeared under a dead vehicle in a pasture, or down their hole before dying... when I switched to higher velocity 110 grain bullets... those really put the "stop" to them... between doggie & I, we got rid of most of them around the farm... many years passed by & one day doggie pinned down a huge possum... I trotted into the house to retrieve my new Alaskan in 480... I had pretty heavy bullets, but only trekking about 800 FPS out of the Alaskan's snubbie barrel... bang, center of mass, & ugly ole possum was DRT, did not even attempt another step... so obviously not big game, but thinking I was seeing the the effects of velocity with the 110's & of the wide meplat of the low velocity 480... two different extremes, if you call a 357 magnum a "big bore" revolver... wondering where exactly the performance effects change for high velocity smaller bore to low velocity bigger bore??? ( BTW... when MRS & I 1st got married, FIL would take me up to his deer camp, & as the newbie I got to field dress the deer ( until I proved I knew how to do it right )... I saw huge differences in the bruised shot areas in the rifles, which ranged from .243, most were 30-06, there was one 300 Win Mag, & the last several years, I used a 45-70... maybe for revolvers & their associated velocity ranges, 40 / 10mm with a wide flat nose ( it's rumored that 10mm kills better in real life than it should on paper ) ( I have a 10mm Magnum, as well as a 401 Powermag )... how about those failures with the 310 grain 44 magnum... is that a wide meplat bullet??? or is the failure compounded by a pointed or round nose shape??? you've got my attention for the discussion... I'm not married to a bullet for my 480, or my 500 JRH... yet... although right now I'm partial to medium weight wide flat nose bullets in both copper & lead...
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Post by bigbrowndog on Jun 11, 2019 16:14:50 GMT -5
I do think there is not much NEED for velocity over 1200fps if you’re using a medium weight bullet in North America. Given 1200fps, you can choose between a monometal deep penetrating bullet, a controlled expansion HP/SP, or something like Fermin describes that has a nose that shreds and a shank that penetrates, I mean that’s basically a Nosler Partition. Choose your bullet to match your game or performance desires and go hunt.
Fermin, as for following pigs into S. Texas brush, I’ve been on hands and knees following blood trails from Cotulla and Three Rivers to Kingsville and Laredo I’ve never once crawled into a rattlebug, but I have come out covered in fleas!!!!
Trapr
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Post by jfs on Jun 11, 2019 16:41:17 GMT -5
The only area a 475 tops a 480 is using heavy for caliber bullets at high velocity along with a lot of self control to consistently shoot these heavyweights accurately. The 480 is a terrific hunting cartridge. I`ve been handgun hunting for about 35 years now and mostly use jacketed bullets simply because that`s what I started with. Living where I live the 100yd outdoor range is a bit of a drive so when I find an accurate bullet/load I stick with it. An example of this would be the early 45 caliber 300gr XTP (before their 300gr Mag bullet was made) with double crimp grooves loaded to 1450fps with H-4227 for my 100 yard whitetail load from my 454. This combination accounted for 13 buck and a few more doe. One thing I found is high velocity with a good JHP with good bullet placement can be impressive... I have taken Cape buff, elk, moose and bear (no freight train) with a handgun and have tried to match the bullet to the game. It worked out good with the four animals just listed and the only problem`s I`ve had in the past were caused by my poor bullet placement. Since I discovered the 41 mag and had Freedom make me a 10" model 83, along with a Taffin handload using either a XTP or Swift, there`s not many animals in North America that cannot be cleanly taken with high velocity and a well made 210gr JHP... The photo below shows a large body barbary sheep taken with my FA`s 41 and a single 210gr XTP running at 1700+fps over 70 yards.... There are shooters like Dick Thompson who can get almost magical performance from his cast bullets and maybe if I lived in Idaho I`ed be singing a different tune, however, as I`ve said before, being a handgun hunter in Jersey is a lonely job...Good hunting
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Post by foxtrapper on Jun 11, 2019 17:52:06 GMT -5
Been shooting a mountain mound 375 gc in my 510 gnr revolvers and in my marlin 50ak. Plenty for paper and hogs!
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Post by 45MAN on Jun 11, 2019 17:58:55 GMT -5
BASED ON 11 HANDGUN AFRICAN SAFARIS, 10 WITH REVOLVERS, AND AFTER TAKING MANY TONS OF GAME IN AFRICA, ALASKA AND THE LOWER 48, I CAN TELL YOU, WITHOUT RESERVATION, THAT, ASSUMING GOOD BULLET INTEGRITY, TAYLOR'S TKO FORMULA IS THE BEST INDICATOR OF THE RELATIVE KILLING POWER OF REVOLVER LOADS. CALCULATING SECTIONAL DENSITY FOR REVOLVER ROUNDS DESIGNED TO BE USED AT 100 YARDS OR LESS DOES NOTHING TO AID IN CALCULATING KILLING POWER.
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Post by webber on Jun 11, 2019 18:42:23 GMT -5
Let me make myself perfectly clear concerning the Sectional Density reference I made. Sectional density is a measure of the weight backing up the frontal area of a bullet put in simple terms. In no way was I inferring or directly stating that it had anything to do with killing power. Nothing determines killing power, once a reasonable bullet weight and construction along with reasonable velocity is reached, as much as precise bullet placement. The ideal bullet weight, caliber, construction including shape and velocity can be negated when lousy shot placement happens. A bullet that is less than ideal can be better if it is place with precision in a vital area by someone that can shoot. So with that being said lets don't attribute something to sectional density I didn't say. BASED ON 11 HANDGUN AFRICAN SAFARIS, 10 WITH REVOLVERS, AND AFTER TAKING MANY TONS OF GAME IN AFRICA, ALASKA AND THE LOWER 48, I CAN TELL YOU, WITHOUT RESERVATION, THAT, ASSUMING GOOD BULLET INTEGRITY, TAYLOR'S TKO FORMULA IS THE BEST INDICATOR OF THE RELATIVE KILLING POWER OF REVOLVER LOADS. CALCULATING SECTIONAL DENSITY FOR REVOLVER ROUNDS DESIGNED TO BE USED AT 100 YARDS OR LESS DOES NOTHING TO AID IN CALCULATING KILLING POWER.
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shorty500
.327 Meteor
too many dirty harry movies created me!
Posts: 911
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Post by shorty500 on Jun 11, 2019 18:47:38 GMT -5
There are many critters I haven’t shot and while neither is 385g since 2001 and 2003 respectively I’ve had truncated cone with wide meplat molds from NEI for the .480 & .500S&W. They run at 328 grains for .480 and 335grains in the fifty. Loaded to modest velocities they can do amazing things
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