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Post by squawberryman on May 17, 2019 20:20:04 GMT -5
I'm looking for knowledge. Granted all my bolts are single stage. My AR's and 10/22's are a mix of single and double. M1's and M1A's are two stage. Why are such weapons which are prone to be fired under duress made with triggers that require additional thought? Kinda like trough sights on a snub nose 357 when pulled and fired in a life threatening situation. Pull, pull, and pull again, what sights?
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Post by bradshaw on May 18, 2019 14:38:40 GMT -5
I'm looking for knowledge. Granted all my bolts are single stage. My AR's and 10/22's are a mix of single and double. M1's and M1A's are two stage. Why are such weapons which are prone to be fired under duress made with triggers that require additional thought? Kinda like trough sights on a snub nose 357 when pulled and fired in a life threatening situation. Pull, pull, and pull again, what sights? ***** Whether the Mauser brothers developed the 2-stage trigger I do not know. The 2-stage is the SAFEST and mechanically MOST SIMPLE way to achieve a clean break while making the sear pretty damn shock-resistant. I never heard a whimper of complaint from master sharpshooters using the M1 Garand Springfields, Mausers, the M14. Certainly, the M1 and M14 become an OFFHAND WAND in skilled hands, with none other than a 2-stage trigger. Heckler & Koch made a terrible mistake in producing a drop-safe single stage trigger on the G3/HK 91----and other guns with the same trigger group----featuring a long pull is just to heavy for maestro offhand work. Anschutz owns the extreme challenge of Biathlon----crosscountry skiing in a cardio-vascular crush mixed with put-your-heart-to-sleep-and-shoot marksmanship. The winning rifle? The Anschutz 1827 Fortner Biathlon Sprint, with Anschutz 2-stage trigger. Which demonstrates the second stage (letoff) can be awfully light & clean. The Anschutz 1827 (Fortner straight pull bolt action) whips open with a flick of the trigger finger and snaps into battery with a push on the thumb on the cocking piece. No other manual action is remotely as fast, except the Izhmash straight pull, also with 2-stage. Double set triggers are not nearly as fast into action, as simple, as reliable as a 2-stage. David Bradshaw |
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Post by boolitdesigner on May 18, 2019 16:38:47 GMT -5
I'm looking for knowledge. Granted all my bolts are single stage. My AR's and 10/22's are a mix of single and double. M1's and M1A's are two stage. Why are such weapons which are prone to be fired under duress made with triggers that require additional thought? Kinda like trough sights on a snub nose 357 when pulled and fired in a life threatening situation. Pull, pull, and pull again, what sights? Mr Bradshaw gave you an excellent answer, but you also answered your own question (as I bolded and highlighted in blue above). I grew up using both trigger systems in rifles and really like the Mauser two stage pull the best. I want to know exactly when the firing pin hits the primer.... it's a lot easier to call your shots that way. |
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Post by squawberryman on May 18, 2019 19:48:51 GMT -5
boolit as never having been shot at, I'd think the extra concentration required would just get in the way. Does a man facing a volley of bullets think about the beginning of the second stage? Not sure I'm asking the right question.
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Post by boolitdesigner on May 18, 2019 20:00:10 GMT -5
After the first 10,000 shots of normal practice, you won't have any problems with concentration in any situation. Give it a try.
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Post by bradshaw on May 19, 2019 6:31:38 GMT -5
Not sure how millions of Mausers, Lee-Enfields, Springfields, Mosin Nagants, and M-1’s don’t qualify as combat rifles.
Greg.... the deal is this: a two stage trigger allows you to “stage” initial contact of finger on trigger. This sets your mind for the SQUEEZE. I don’t care what anyone calls a trigger pull----you can mash a shotgun trigger, you squeeze the trigger of a rifle or handgun. To shoot fast, squeeze faster, the discipline develops over time. Panic on the trigger is not a shortcut to fast shooting.Practice----TIME on the MOUNTAIN----smoothes reflexes and builds muscle memory, the only valid way to compress time. Some folks are just smoother than others. I see young girls introduced to biathlon, with Izhmash and Anschutz rifles, with the LETOFF STAGE set at a few ounces. How do they get there without a premature shot? The TAKE-UP STAGE tells their mind, “O.K., now we go for it.”
Exploding aerial targets with an M1 Garand is not match shooting. Yet, it requires fierce attention to SIGHT PICTURE, with a strong----although less than match-grade----focus on the front sight. Hammer fall is determined by your sight picture, a fast squeeze clicked in your mind by where the bullet has to be in the trajectory of the target. The 2 stage trigger works fine. My subconscious handles the take-up stage.
The EYE LOOKS, the MIND SEES. My impression from instructors in the M1 Garand was that most American “snipers” in WW II were real marksmen thrown into combat. Whose skill made them particular about doping their sights and brought them into problem solving situations, both on their own initiative and at the behest of others: “We need a rifleman over here!"
A sharpshooter learns to use all sorts of triggers. For me, the difference in triggers is handled by a determination to hit the target. I get along fine with a 2 stage.
David Bradshaw
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Post by nolongcolt on May 19, 2019 11:15:54 GMT -5
I prefer a two stage trigger for most rifle shooting. Shot the M1 and M1A in competition for some time and was always very comfortable with the system. When I got an ArmaLite AR it came with a single stage trigger which I shortly replaced with a two stage match trigger, much better. When you do it enough it becomes so natural you don't even notice the first stage.
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Post by squawberryman on May 19, 2019 12:55:43 GMT -5
I suppose with 10,000 rounds (Boolit) behind you whatever your preference is is natural. I was just wondering why a battle weapon has it.
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Post by boolitdesigner on May 19, 2019 13:07:14 GMT -5
I suppose with 10,000 rounds (Boolit) behind you whatever your preference is is natural. I was just wondering why a battle weapon has it. Two stage triggers on battle rifles are generally thought to be safer when issued to relatively green troops. Once someone has enough experience, it generally doesn't matter what they have. As far as the 10K number of rounds, I surpassed that around 1975 and am well into 7 figures now. I recommend shooting a lot to everyone. |
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