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Post by bobwright on Mar 28, 2019 10:44:38 GMT -5
There has been much palaver regarding current .45 Caliber revolvers and the ammunition they will take and won't take. Here is my observations on such revolvers. Please note that this applies to unmodified revolvers as they come from the factory. There are several cartridges of .45 caliber commercially available today: (1) .45 Colt (2) .45 Smith & Wesson a.k.a. .45 Schofield (3) .45 Auto, a.k.a. .45 ACP (4) .45 Auto Rim. A. Revolvers chambered for .45 Colt can chamber and fire the .45 S&W rounds without modification. The rounds may be used interchangeably. .45 ACP cannot be loaded and fired in these guns. The ACP round headspaces on the case mouth, and the Colt chamber is too deep for this to happen. The .45 Auto Rim will not chamber and fire in these revolvers, as its rim is too thick for the headspace, that is, the distance between the rear face of the cylinder and the standing breech of the revolver. The same holds true for .45 ACP cartridges held by half moon or full moon clips. B. Colt and Smith & Wesson double action revolvers chambered for the .45 ACP can chamber and fire both the .45 ACP and the .45 AR without any problem. And most of these guns will chamber and fire .45 ACP without clips, though extraction must be by poking the empties out with a pencil or rod one at a time, though some will fall out by gravity. Some early Colt revolvers lacked the shoulder in the chamber and will allow the ACP round to enter too deep without using clips. C. Ruger Single Action Blackhawks having two cylinders, .45 Colt and .45 ACP: With the Colt cylinder in place, both .45 Colt and .45 S&W ammunition can be used at will. With the ACP cylinder in place, .45 ACP cartridges can be used without clips. And .45 AR will not chamber and fire as the rim is too thick. D. A new cartridge, the .45 Cowboy Special, which I call the .45 Xtra Short, can be used in Ruger revolvers with either the .45 Colt or the .45 ACP cylinder in place. I have never tried, nor do I intend to, using these rounds in a DA Smith or Colt revolver. Because of excessive headspace, ignition would be iffy. I intentionally left out such rounds as the .454 Cassul etc. as they do seem to be beyond the bounds of this discussion. And further I know of several aftermarket 'smiths who have built custom cylinders for whatever cartridges the owner desires. Here are some vintage .45's: .45 Cowboy Special/Xtra Short and .45 ACP Bob Wright
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Post by mk70ss on Mar 28, 2019 12:16:58 GMT -5
Interesting. I had never heard of the .45 Cowboy xtra short. I assume it’s design was in line with CAS type shooting.
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Post by magnumwheelman on Mar 28, 2019 12:22:15 GMT -5
very well presented... would be nice if you had a 45 Autorim cartridge to put with the ACP & Cowboy short, so everyone could see how much thicker that really is... not to side tract too far, but I'm building 10mm Rimmed cases for a GP-100 Dave Clements is converting to 10mm Rimmed... these have a standard rim thickness... occasionally I hear people wishing Starline would make a 10 mm Autorim, which is correct for the moon clip double action 10 mm guns... but one of those would not fit in a Buckeye or similar single action, as the double actions have a wider gap machined at the rear of the cylinder to allow space for the moon clip, that is just not there on a single action... I'll look & see if I have a picture of one of my 45 Autorim cartridges This will do...
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Post by bobwright on Mar 28, 2019 14:02:47 GMT -5
Interesting. I had never heard of the .45 Cowboy xtra short. I assume it’s design was in line with CAS type shooting. The official designation of that cartridge is .45 Cowboy Special, and is so headstamped by Starline. However, I made my brass from crippled .45 Colt cases and dubbed mine as the .45 Xtra Special. The Cowboy Special is copyrighted so I used my own designation. I don't know the actual dimensions of the Cowboy Special, but I cut mine to the same length as the ACP. I used ACP dies with the .45 Colt shell holder. Bob Wright
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Post by sixshot on Mar 28, 2019 15:02:10 GMT -5
Thanks for the write up BOb, good to know & good photo's.
Dick
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cubrock
.401 Bobcat
TLA fanatic and all around nice guy....
Posts: 2,841
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Post by cubrock on Mar 28, 2019 22:25:59 GMT -5
Great write-up and timely!
The only caveat I would add is that .45 Colt guns that have a moonclip conversion done by certain companies may fire .45 Colt, .45 Schofield, and .45 ACP interchangeably, as long as the .45 ACP uses a moonclip. Whether .45 Autorim will work depends on the company doing the conversion.
Such guns are, of course, the minority, but it is worth filing this information away in the back of your head. Several months ago, I purchased an Uberti Schofield with such a conversion, which is what brought it to mind when reading the original post.
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Post by bobwright on Mar 29, 2019 12:33:33 GMT -5
Great write-up and timely! The only caveat I would add is that .45 Colt guns that have a moonclip conversion done by certain companies may fire .45 Colt, .45 Schofield, and .45 ACP interchangeably, as long as the .45 ACP uses a moonclip. Whether .45 Autorim will work depends on the company doing the conversion. Such guns are, of course, the minority, but it is worth filing this information away in the back of your head. Several months ago, I purchased an Uberti Schofield with such a conversion, which is what brought it to mind when reading the original post. All of my .45s are either Ruger, Colt, or Uberti Single Actions. Obviously, moon clips are out of the question. Or at least, should be. Bob Wright
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Post by boolitdesigner on Mar 29, 2019 13:31:18 GMT -5
There are exceptions to most everything here unfortunately. Custom smiths further the possibilities. Ruger also makes a 45 Redhawk that takes 45 Colt and 45 ACP on moon clips (proprietary ones at that) in the same cylinder. All depends on what firearm you're talking about.
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Post by renton10x on Apr 22, 2019 1:15:18 GMT -5
So the new Redhawk requires moonclips to fire .45 ACP? This gun uses only one cylinder for both rounds.
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Post by dale53 on Apr 29, 2019 18:43:24 GMT -5
I was "late to arrive" regarding the .45 Colt. Most of my adult life has been "with" the .44 Special and .44 Magnums in suitable revolvers. It has been a good journey, too. However, a few years ago I, along with several friends, ended up with Ruger SS Bisley .45 Colt/.45 ACP revolvers. Mine was unusable direct from the factory with cast bullets. The throats in both cylinders was .449-.450" and leaded terribly. In fact, the .45 ACP wouldn't allow me to even chamber my reloads with .452" cast bullets. I reamed both cylinders with a borrowed reamer kit from a good friend, and learned how useful and versatile these convertibles actually are. My revolver in .45 Colt AND .45 ACP will shoot under 1" at 25 yards on demand. I had several hundred .45 Cowboy Special cases from another project and can use those perfectly in the .45 ACP cylinder (allows roll crimping for heavy bullets). I mostly am limited to the range, these days (too old and feeble to drag a deer out of the woods) but am truly impressed with the flat out "usefulness" of such a revolver. I mostly use the .45 ACP cylinder using a target load of 4.0 grs. of Bullseye or equivalent behind a Mihec molded H&G #68 (200 gr. swc). For the range, this is a combination from heaven!(:>)) Here is the first target fired with the .45 ACP cylinder (after reaming the cylinder) off a makeshift rest, indoors at 50 feet, at my local range: FWIW Dale53
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wyo
.30 Stingray
Posts: 103
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Post by wyo on Apr 29, 2019 19:54:18 GMT -5
Dale53...outstanding shooting! I just purchased my first 45 colt revolver from a forum member here, a Ruger bisley turnbull ) I haven't shot it yet as I am waiting for bullets from Bruce at Montana Bullet Works to arrive. If it shoots half as good as your convertible does, I will be one happy man!
WYO
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Post by oddshooter on Apr 29, 2019 20:42:00 GMT -5
Awesome post Bob Wright, Really nice review and summary.
If you really want to add fuel to a fire, the S&W Hand Ejectors that were made in .455 Webley were machined multiple ways to accept the 45 Colt and other 45's; when they were brought back to the states after the war. There was no standard technique.
Many of these were misused shooting 45 ACP as well which has a much higher pressure rating. Lots of variables beside "will it fit and go bang".
I am very cautious with the 45 Colt loads I build. My machined HE .455 would never handle the loads I build for my Ruger Hunter and my T/C. I follow the idea of 3 Tiers with the 45 Colt, but I think there should be a fourth for butchered 1900 steel.
Your attempt at bringing some logic and reason to the multiple bad choices that can be made is much needed.
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Post by renton10x on Apr 30, 2019 14:07:17 GMT -5
Dale, I have the same gun as you do. I put in Wolff springs and a Bowen Custom rear sight and the gun is terrific except for the throats. What diameter throats did you ream yours to?
Also, I have an old Smith 25-2 in .45 ACP/AR and it had throats of .456 on it. I sent the revolver to S&W and they put a new cylinder with .452 throats on it. It is stainless steel, so now I have a "Pinto" gun that is quite attractive and much more accurate!
I am also born in 1953 and am a revolver shooter - I shoot three times a week at the range here in Renton, WA.
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Post by boolitdesigner on Apr 30, 2019 15:28:27 GMT -5
So the new Redhawk requires moonclips to fire .45 ACP? This gun uses only one cylinder for both rounds. The Redhawk is advertised as dual caliber (45 Colt and 45 ACP) and is a round butt grip also. Normal moonclips will not work.... it uses the Ruger moonclips only. Your statements are correct for that gun.
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dmize
.401 Bobcat
Posts: 2,825
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Post by dmize on Apr 30, 2019 17:32:27 GMT -5
So the new Redhawk requires moonclips to fire .45 ACP? This gun uses only one cylinder for both rounds. The Redhawk is advertised as dual caliber (45 Colt and 45 ACP) and is a round butt grip also. Normal moonclips will not work.... it uses the Ruger moonclips only. Your statements are correct for that gun. You left out that the proprietary moon clips are a bit pricey too,or at least they were when I bought mine.
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