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Post by Burnston on Mar 27, 2019 13:22:40 GMT -5
Good afternoon all,
My most often shot pistol is a Smith 21-4 .44spl, an abomination to some due to it's side lock, and greatly valued by others like myself. This pistol is the first I've owned that I shot over 1k rounds through, and played with as far as various loads the most.
Recently, upon very careful examination I came across a slight "bulge," for lack of a batter term, along the top exterior of the barrel. Naturally, I attributed my periodic leading problem to this discovery, and I began to make grand plans as to how to address this issue; everything from selling in cheaply as a base gun to having it re-barreled.
After careful examination my Mr. Powers, he concluded that this was most likely an exterior only problem, and that the bore shows now signs of a bulge, and was in perfect working order.
I've since spoken with multiple well reputed gunsmiths about this pistol, and have said that due to the nature of how a Smith barrel is made, exterior anomalies and imperfections are not unusual, given that they cannot be turned.
Good news; it seems my barrel is fine. Bad news, I must continue seeking causes of my periodic leading, even after closely following Fermin's anti-leading regiment.
I know several of you are Smith shooters, and I would like to know/see if any of you have any revolvers featuring odd characteristics, such as the one I described above. Perhaps this is not an unusual occurrence that I've simply not heard about. In any case, contributions are appreciated.
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Post by nolongcolt on Mar 27, 2019 14:31:41 GMT -5
Don't know about the lead issue but I have seen the barrel lumpiness you describe.
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Post by bradshaw on Mar 27, 2019 21:44:14 GMT -5
Burnston.... a suspected “bulge” in the bore, or other loose spot, which you cannot see is detectible by SLUGGING. Index your pure lead slug (example: mark the nose @ 12 o’clock), so that you can index slug for the all-important 2nd pass. Push slug through lightly oiled bore and feel for tight or loose spots. The old S&W barrels are drop forged, machined, rifled, in that order.
David Bradshaw
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Post by Cholla on Mar 31, 2019 21:09:20 GMT -5
Good afternoon all, My most often shot pistol is a Smith 21-4 .44spl, an abomination to some due to it's side lock, and greatly valued by others like myself. This pistol is the first I've owned that I shot over 1k rounds through, and played with as far as various loads the most. Recently, upon very careful examination I came across a slight "bulge," for lack of a batter term, along the top exterior of the barrel. Naturally, I attributed my periodic leading problem to this discovery, and I began to make grand plans as to how to address this issue; everything from selling in cheaply as a base gun to having it re-barreled. After careful examination my Mr. Powers, he concluded that this was most likely an exterior only problem, and that the bore shows now signs of a bulge, and was in perfect working order. I've since spoken with multiple well reputed gunsmiths about this pistol, and have said that due to the nature of how a Smith barrel is made, exterior anomalies and imperfections are not unusual, given that they cannot be turned. Good news; it seems my barrel is fine. Bad news, I must continue seeking causes of my periodic leading, even after closely following Fermin's anti-leading regiment. I know several of you are Smith shooters, and I would like to know/see if any of you have any revolvers featuring odd characteristics, such as the one I described above. Perhaps this is not an unusual occurrence that I've simply not heard about. In any case, contributions are appreciated. What anti-leading regimen are you following? I shoot more .44 Special than anything, and I mean lots of it, with my own cast bullets and leading is something I rarely if ever deal with. Maybe I can help....? FWIW, lately I have been having lustful thoughts over the 21-4, I've even started squirreling a little money back. Cholla |
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Post by 2 Dogs on Mar 31, 2019 23:32:03 GMT -5
I’ve polished lots of Smiths and some of those barrels are indeed “lumpy”.
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Post by Frank V on Apr 2, 2019 18:02:02 GMT -5
Burnston.... a suspected “bulge” in the bore, or other loose spot, which you cannot see is detectible by SLUGGING. Index your pure lead slug (example: mark the nose @ 12 o’clock), so that you can index slug for the all-important 2nd pass. Push slug through lightly oiled bore and feel for tight or loose spots. The old S&W barrels are drop forged, machined, rifled, in that order. David Bradshaw Sometimes a very tight patch will expose a bulge. If there is much of a bulge you will feel the patch skip at the bulge. |
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Post by Burnston on Apr 3, 2019 22:16:14 GMT -5
Burnston.... a suspected “bulge” in the bore, or other loose spot, which you cannot see is detectible by SLUGGING. Index your pure lead slug (example: mark the nose @ 12 o’clock), so that you can index slug for the all-important 2nd pass. Push slug through lightly oiled bore and feel for tight or loose spots. The old S&W barrels are drop forged, machined, rifled, in that order. David Bradshaw Update: After slugging the barrel as recommended, I've discovered that there are no bulges inside the barrel. However, I did discover significant restriction in the throat. After repeating the process several times, it was made clear that the barrel narrows at the throat. I have now officially done all I can do, and am open to suggestions regarding solutions. Correction: Forcing cone- not throat. |
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Post by Cholla on Apr 3, 2019 22:29:27 GMT -5
Burnston.... a suspected “bulge” in the bore, or other loose spot, which you cannot see is detectible by SLUGGING. Index your pure lead slug (example: mark the nose @ 12 o’clock), so that you can index slug for the all-important 2nd pass. Push slug through lightly oiled bore and feel for tight or loose spots. The old S&W barrels are drop forged, machined, rifled, in that order. David Bradshaw Update: After slugging the barrel as recommended, I've discovered that there are no bulges inside the barrel. However, I did discover significant restriction in the throat. After repeating the process several times, it was made clear that the barrel narrows at the throat. I have now officially done all I can do, and am open to suggestions regarding solutions. Ruger's are quite well known for their "thread choke", as it has been labeled, and I once owned a New Vaquero in 45 Colt with this problem. I chose fire-lapping as the solution and after almost 70 rounds, the restriction was...better, and I was tired of rolling cast bullets in lapping compound. So that or hand-lapping are the only solutions of which I am aware. How bad is the restriction? Cholla |
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Post by Burnston on Apr 3, 2019 22:35:37 GMT -5
Cholla- I used a brass rod and several pure lead slugs to make the determination. Everything was smooth through and through until I hit the forcing cone, at which point I had to significantly increase my pressure to get the slug through. Repeated raps using the same force as going through the barrel would not budge the slug. The difference was dramatic.
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Post by Cholla on Apr 3, 2019 22:36:47 GMT -5
Did you happen to measure one of the slugs? It's diameter should reflect the diameter of the restriction.
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Post by Burnston on Apr 3, 2019 22:40:09 GMT -5
I have not. So disillusioned by the restriction was I that the job has been left for another day, though the slugs remain on the work bench waiting to be measured until such time as my patience returns.
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nicholst55
.375 Atomic
Retired, twice.
Posts: 1,041
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Post by nicholst55 on Apr 3, 2019 23:12:29 GMT -5
One other solution to thread choke is Taylor Throating. IME, not a lot of smiths are set up to do this, and AFAIK, the reamers are no longer made. I can recommend a smith, if anyone is interested. I suppose the 'right' fix is to remove the barrel and refit it, so that it times without constriction.
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edk
.375 Atomic
Posts: 1,106
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Post by edk on Apr 4, 2019 6:14:18 GMT -5
One other solution to thread choke is Taylor Throating. IME, not a lot of smiths are set up to do this, and AFAIK, the reamers are no longer made. I can recommend a smith, if anyone is interested. I suppose the 'right' fix is to remove the barrel and refit it, so that it times without constriction. Are barrels over tightened upon installation which thus exhibit choke generally not deformed past their elastic limit such that refitting will solve the problem? |
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nicholst55
.375 Atomic
Retired, twice.
Posts: 1,041
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Post by nicholst55 on Apr 4, 2019 6:15:59 GMT -5
One other solution to thread choke is Taylor Throating. IME, not a lot of smiths are set up to do this, and AFAIK, the reamers are no longer made. I can recommend a smith, if anyone is interested. I suppose the 'right' fix is to remove the barrel and refit it, so that it times without constriction. Are barrels over tightened upon installation which thus exhibit choke generally not deformed past their elastic limit such that refitting will solve the problem? I would suspect that this varies from case to case, depending on how much torque was applied during the initial installation. |
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Post by bradshaw on Apr 4, 2019 8:40:20 GMT -5
"Are barrels over tightened upon installation which thus exhibit choke generally not deformed past their elastic limit such that refitting will solve the problem?”
----edk
*****
Good question, perhaps not easily answered. Nicholst55 suggests problem may very with torque applied. The answer may be found by measuring constriction with barrel in frame; measuring again with barrel removed. Somewhere during the past two or three decades, shortcuts were taken in barrel fitting. Ruger and S&W and perhaps others forgot about THREAD TIMING and decided a gorilla with a torque wrench was better. Another factor comes into play: S&W uses fine threads, which tighten a barrel more slowly than coarser threads. Thus, a 10-degree turn pushes a Ruger barrel farther into the frame than a 10-degree turn on a Smith & Wesson barrel.
FIRE LAPPING to remove compression ring
Done without altering or removing the over-tightened barrel.
FREEBORE to remove compression ring
* Done with barrel removed. A straight reamer, .0005” over groove diameter, cuts freebore to a depth just past BARREL SHOULDER (.800-inch freebore for a Super Blackhawk).
* While barrel is off frame, shoulder is trimmed to hand-tighten barrel to 10 or 12-degrees BTDC.
* Barrel off frame presents opportunity to correct a bad forcing cone. Properly done on a lathe. If factory cone is excessively deep, trim BARREL SHOULDER to shorten FORCING CONE and TIME THREADS.
* Last act, barrel is FACED to set BARREL/CYLINDER GAP.
FREEBORE and VELOCITY
Freebore tends to drop velocity about 50 fps. However, the velocity loss may be more than made up for by reducing barrel/cylinder gap.
Hand Lapping
The problem I see with handlapping to remove a compression ring comes from abrasion caused by reversing the lap. Is it possible to precisely lap the swelled area without abrasion ion either side of swelling?
David Bradshaw
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