|
Post by mathias on Feb 21, 2019 11:01:55 GMT -5
Hi I have had this revolver for quite some time, it shoots acceptable with jacketed bullets and every time i have tried lead bullets i have had inconsistent results. So now i thought i would make an effort and see if i could figure out way. So i slugged the bore using a .375 round ball that i upset a little with a hammer, started it down the muzzle using a wooden mallet then only i a light push was needed until i had about 3cm left from there i had to give the cleaning rod i was using a few good whacks before the slug came out measuring 8,95mm.
So i would very much like to hear if there is som ways i can fix this ? I live in Sweden so sending it S&W is not an option And it looks like i am more likely to find water in Sahara than a barrel for a 586. And our lokal laws pretty much rules out buying a new one.
Best regards Mathias
|
|
|
Post by squigz on Feb 21, 2019 11:11:28 GMT -5
I'm sure someone with much more experience and know how will chime in on this.
8.95mm works out to 0.352", a 357 magnum is .357", so it seems like you're barrel is fine (again, to me)
The next place to check is see if you can find out what your cylinder throats measure out. You might be shooting a .357 cast bullet out of a .359 throat and that could be causing the lack of accuracy. In which you would just need to find a larger cast bullet to match your firearms throats. Jacketed bullets will be set at .357" usually.
On the metric system: .357" would be equal to 9.0678mm .358" would be equal to 9.0932mm .359" would be equal to 9.1186mm
|
|
|
Post by bradshaw on Feb 21, 2019 11:52:24 GMT -5
Hi I have had this revolver for quite some time, it shoots acceptable with jacketed bullets and every time i have tried lead bullets i have had inconsistent results. So now i thought i would make an effort and see if i could figure out way. So i slugged the bore using a .375 round ball that i upset a little with a hammer, started it down the muzzle using a wooden mallet then only i a light push was needed until i had about 3cm left from there i had to give the cleaning rod i was using a few good whacks before the slug came out measuring 8,95mm. So i would very much like to hear if there is som ways i can fix this ? I live in Sweden so sending it S&W is not an option And it looks like i am more likely to find water in Sahara than a barrel for a 586. And our lokal laws pretty much rules out buying a new one. Best regards Mathias ***** Mathias.... way I see it, you have a choice: 1) FIRELAPFire lap with soft lead bullets rolled in very fine lapping compound (not the coarse compound used for lapping valves in engines); lightest charge of fast powder that will reliably push bullet out barrel. Fire lapping is time consuming and messy. Instructions are on the internet and in published articles. 2) PULL BARREL* Hand tighten barrel to frame. Barrel should stop 10 to 12-degrees Before Top Dead Center (BTDC)----approximately 11:30 o’clock. * Slug removed barrel to check for a compression ring in bore where BARREL TENON and BARREL SHOULDER meet. (Same compression ring you feel now.) If the slug passes through without resistance, there is ELASTIC DEFORMATION when the barrel is over-tightened to the frame, and the barrel will have to be re-TIMED. * Screw barrel to frame by hand. Barrel should stop 10 to 12-degrees Before Top Dead Center (BTDC). * If the barrel hand tightens much earlier----for example, 30-degrees BTDC (10:30-11 o’clock)----the barrel shoulder must turned on a lathe until it hand-tighten to 10 or 12-degrees BTDC. There should be no need to recut threads on barrel tenon. * Count threads-per-inch (TPI) on barrel. With TPI and degrees BTDC, one may calculate metal to be removed from barrel shoulder. If, after you have unscrewed barrel from frame, a compression ring remains, the barrel has PLASTIC DEFORMATION----the displaced metal does not spring back. If a compression ring remains, yet a slug passes more easily than with the barrel screwed to the frame, it would be better to TIME the barrel on a lathe, and then firelap whatever compression ring remains. If it is not possible or practical to pull the barrel, you will just have to do more fire lapping. If the barrel is set back (re-TIMED), you may have to face off the BARREL MOUTH to allow enough BARREL/CYLINDER GAP for cylinder rotation. Less is better than more, but the cylinder must not bind when trigger-cocking or hammer-cocking the revolver. CautionIt should go without saying, tools are required to remove a barrel without doing damage. The forward sideplate screw is removed, so that YOKE with CYLINDER may be pulled off the frame. The frame must be supported and properly padded in a strong vise. Likewise, the barrel must secured in comforting blocks before removing with a wrench. Not very machinist is to be trusted with this work. David Bradshaw
|
|
|
Post by ezekiel38 on Feb 21, 2019 21:25:11 GMT -5
Firelap would be my first choice. Go slowly and fire a round then slug and measure the slug. Continue until you get 357-358.
|
|
|
Post by mathias on Feb 22, 2019 10:19:01 GMT -5
Bradshaw : Thank you for describing my options, fire lapping is the one i can try by my self as i do not have the tools necessary for barrel removal. But this gave me something to discuss with my gun smith. You think it would be a good idea to try an get a meassurement of the barrel before the constricted area ? So i can have an idea on hove much i have to remove ? /Mathias
|
|
|
Post by bradshaw on Feb 22, 2019 13:15:19 GMT -5
Bradshaw : Thank you for describing my options, fire lapping is the one i can try by my self as i do not have the tools necessary for barrel removal. But this gave me something to discuss with my gun smith. You think it would be a good idea to try an get a meassurement of the barrel before the constricted area ? So i can have an idea on hove much i have to remove ? /Mathias ****** Mathias.... if you are able to take clear pictures of the forcing cone and bore, please do so and post. A piece of white paper in the cylinder window facilitates taking photos of the bore. You do not need to measure the BORE DIAMETER. By “bore” we usually mean GROOVE DIAMETER. Between bore diameter and groove diameter, GROOVE DIAMETER is more important to ACCURACY. A hole micrometer is useful for measure bore & groove, and chamber exits, but it is not necessary. SLUGGING the bore of a dimensionally uniform barrel allows for measurement of groove diameter. In the old days, it was standard practice to "slug the barrel” before casting a single bullet. The idea was to cast a bullet which is then SIZED to .001-inch larger than groove diameter. I do not remember meeting a caster who did not slug the barrel before casting; certainly not before sizing. In the last 30 years it has been a good idea to slug the bore to check for uniformity----consistent bore & groove. Irregular bore diameter, causes* A ROLLMARK (roll stamping) heavily applied to a barrel, especially a thin barrel, risks compressing the bore under the stamp. A roll mark with too much information, or a large logo, risks compressing the bore. These compressions are felt as tight spots when you slug the bore. My practice is to slug a clean, lightly lubed bore with a pure lead slug, which is tapped into the muzzle with a plastic mallet. The slug is pushed----tapped if necessary----through the bore with a brass rod wrapped in electricians tape or a double-wrap of masking tape. I feel for any LOOSE or TIGHT spots, and measure their location. * A COMPRESSION RING from over-tightening makes for hard resistance at the barrel/frame juncture. Index the slug----align grooves to match the first pass----and push slug through bore by hand. It moves more easily on the second pass; easier to feel tight or loose spots. Again, measure to locate any irregularity. Short of replacing barrel, nothing can be done about loose spots. A compression ring will feel hard. Depending on the degree of “thread choke,” the slug may require tapping with a mallet 2 or 3 times before you’re able to push the slug past the compression ring by hand. A thick compression ring requires a lot more FIRELAPPING than a thin ring. PATIENCE is key. I know of no shortcut that will reduce the ring without doing damage to either side of the raised section. To try to lap out the raised section by back-and-forth hand strokes risks enlarging the areas where the the lap is reversed. David Bradshaw
|
|
|
Post by mathias on Feb 23, 2019 4:42:03 GMT -5
Yes i slug and measure the bore and or forcing cone to decide what size the bullet should have. I found something called Wheeler Bore Lapping Kit on ebay, would that be a good product if i were to try my hand at fire lapping ? Here are some pictures i was able to take, don´t know if they show what you would like to see
|
|
|
Post by bradshaw on Feb 23, 2019 8:47:15 GMT -5
Mathias.... Fermin Garza, aka 2 Dogs, Lee Martin, and various other members of Singleactions have explained FIRELAPPING. Reckon other forums also have dope to guide the process. I have not used kits; hopefully other will chime in. The process is important. Chromoly (blued) steel laps in few rounds than stainless. Fewer rounds are required to lap out a .001-inch compression ring a .002-inch ring. Abrasive material and barrel steel also factor. To slug the bore every so often, and to target, marks progress better than guessing.
Rifle shooters lap with jacketed bullets. The process might work with a revolver; I haven’t tried it. A very fine diamond lap, impregnated into the bullet’s bearing surface, might work. Results must be measured on targets @ 50 yards and, preferably, 100 yards. Be sure to have targets before you fire lap. Fire lapping progress----or lack thereof----must be measured against the present constriction. David Bradshaw
|
|
|
Post by mathias on Feb 23, 2019 9:26:12 GMT -5
I will do a lot of reading before i try to do something i really don´t want to mess this up. So i will make sure i understand the process first
|
|
|
Post by wheelguns on Feb 23, 2019 13:35:02 GMT -5
I have 2 different .45c single action revolvers that both suffered from thread choke. I used to get alot of leading just past the forcing cone. At the time, several years ago, firelapping scared the bejesus out of me. I thought I would ruin my new revolver for sure. I read somewhere about a guy that got rid of his thread choke by shooting hot jacketed bullets through it. I figured I didn’t have anything to lose, so I tried it. I would shoot about 100rds of jacketed a week and see what happens. Somewhere on that third hundred, the sound of the gun changed, it got more accurate, and the recoil felt less. The next week, I brought 100rds of cast bullets with me. This would normally cause major leading. Guess what, not a drop.
I am just saying what worked for me. I did not use any lapping compound. I don’t know if this will work on your revolver, but it did for me. Good luck! I hope you get it straightened out
|
|
|
Post by cas on Feb 23, 2019 14:45:08 GMT -5
Must be one of those conversion barrels, the ball went in SAE and came out Metric! That is a problem.
|
|
|
Post by 2 Dogs on Feb 24, 2019 1:47:43 GMT -5
I will do a lot of reading before i try to do something i really don´t want to mess this up. So i will make sure i understand the process first This might help Sir: gunblast.com/FerminGarza-Firelapping.htm
|
|
|
Post by mathias on Feb 24, 2019 5:47:45 GMT -5
Thanks for all the help, i really appreciate it By thinkering around a little and using some pieces of a wooden dowel i got a meassurement of the barrel before and after the constriction and the difference is 0.06mm or 0.0023". Is it possible to remove that whitout distorting some other important measurement ? Mathias
|
|
|
Post by bradshaw on Feb 24, 2019 11:08:13 GMT -5
I have 2 different .45c single action revolvers that both suffered from thread choke. I used to get alot of leading just past the forcing cone. At the time, several years ago, firelapping scared the bejesus out of me. I thought I would ruin my new revolver for sure. I read somewhere about a guy that got rid of his thread choke by shooting hot jacketed bullets through it. I figured I didn’t have anything to lose, so I tried it. I would shoot about 100rds of jacketed a week and see what happens. Somewhere on that third hundred, the sound of the gun changed, it got more accurate, and the recoil felt less. The next week, I brought 100rds of cast bullets with me. This would normally cause major leading. Guess what, not a drop. I am just saying what worked for me. I did not use any lapping compound. I don’t know if this will work on your revolver, but it did for me. Good luck! I hope you get it straightened out ***** wheelguns.... this is an intriguing proposition, to actually BULLET BURNISH the compression ring. Since we are trying to help a shooter thousands of miles from American resources, a method must be found to “iron out” the ring. The method you used would wreck a K-frame Model 19 or M-66, and might induce a bit of BARREL FACE EROSION in the L-frame M-586 .357 Mag. (The popularly term “FORCING CONE EROSION” is technically less accurate. The lingo “forcing cone erosion” usually means erosion of the barrel face.) By detailing your process----guns & loads----we may get a handle on the technique. In discussing technical matters, articulation counts big time. While important, accuracy before & after tends to be more vague. Nevertheless, to state specific revolver and load is important. Mathias.... how do you measure “0.06mm or .0023-inch with a wood dowel? A set of pin gauges short enough to fit between STANDING BREECH and BARREL FACE allow diameter of the compression ring to be measured. And pin gauges permit measurement of the bore at the muzzle. The groove diameter at muzzle and under compression ring may be measured by slugging the muzzle, measuring, and then driving the slug through the compression ring to measure groove diameter again. If your M-586 turns out to have 0.06mm/.0023” constriction, that is a lot of steel to firelap. FREEBOREI did not FREEBORE, as the barrel must be removed. A reamer .0005-inch greater than groove diameter removes rifling to just in front of the BARREL SHOULDER. Freebore is doing on a lathe or mill, not by hand! (Nor is a forcing cone cut or reamed by hand!) The barrel is timed to hand-tighten 10-12 degrees BTDC. I learned of this technique from Rod Sward, who managed the Interterms Virginian Dragoon plant in Virginia. Sward freebored the .357 and .44 Mag 10-inch barrels put on the Silhouette Dragoon, which revolvers were good for 2 to 3-inch groups at 100 meters. Freebore must perfectly align with the BORE AXIS and GROOVE DIAMETER. David Bradshaw
|
|
|
Post by mathias on Feb 24, 2019 12:40:45 GMT -5
Bradshaw: What i dis was start a slug about 3cm down the barrel and then use pieces of said wood dowel to push it back out through the muzzle by inserting them through the window frame, i then pushed a slug al the way through the barrel and the difference was 0.06mm. The felt resistance begun about 5mm inside the frame or in the middle of the threaded part of the frame. I would agree that using a set of pin gauges would be the best but it is a long time since we used inches over here so finding a set is long shot, i have looked in to buying one but with shipping that would cost somewhere around 400$ so that will have t wait Perhaps it is best i share some history of this gun. I bought it new 2001, it will shoot jacketed bullets reasonable well, 6cmm at 25m both 38spl and 357mag. It has not done well with cast shooting large and irregular. So why have i not done something about this before now ? Well as i said i shoots well enough for what i use it fore, we call it field shooting, a competition form were you shoot at different size targets on time and you only count hits not group size, and jacketed bullets has not been that expensive. during the years i Wold say that i have put some 9000 38 spl and 2000 357mag through her. Now prices are starting to go up and i have had nothing but success with lead bullets in my Ruger Bisley 45 Colt, and my Kimber 1911, 45acp and them i use for bullseye shooting so i thought i would give this a try again and at least se what the problem is and see if i can do something about it Best regards Mathias
|
|