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Post by boolitdesigner on Sept 12, 2017 13:04:56 GMT -5
I would predict that a hardcast bullet with a wide meplat and sharp edges would do better though. Not so............ In my state we can hunt deer with a wheel gun, not any semi-auto as long as it is 30 caliber and above and produces 500 ft-lbs at the muzzle...NO FMJ's (which is what a hard cast SWC is basically). You need more energy to make a SWC work and kill the same as an expanding HP will. Having said that I have killed several with the 45 ACP in revolvers and single actions. These should be 50 yards and under with a HP bullet that will open! A sharp nosed wide meplat semi wad cutter is basically a short range item unless you hit bone to immobilize (such as the shoulder or head). Bullets will shoot thru the rib cage with very little effect. Last one I shot with a SWC thru the heart/lungs took 4 shoots to get it to stay down... I was on top of a 25 foot bluff and couldn't get to it fast enough to stop it from leaving... shot from about 35 yards and I did recover it where I shot it. Absolutely no SWC hunting in my future.... only HP's out of my molds which have been proven and work all the time.
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f3
.30 Stingray
Posts: 412
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Post by f3 on Sept 13, 2017 1:03:50 GMT -5
FMJ are legal in Montana as are rimfires. I have seen a handful of neck shot deer with 22 mag rifle that went nowhere but down. Same with 17 HMR. Definitely don't advocate the use. But they can be used effectively when times call for it.
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Post by bradshaw on Sept 13, 2017 23:54:45 GMT -5
"I have seen a handful of neck shot deer with 22 mag rifle that went nowhere but down. Same with 17 HMR. Definitely don't advocate the use. But they can be used effectively when times call for it.” ____f3
*****
These puny rounds have no forgiveness. A deer shot in the neck or head with one of these rimfires may run off to suffer and die out of reach of a tracker. No one should be encouraged to hunt undergunned. For all the explosive power of a .22-250 or .220 Swift, they are lousy deer cartridges. Yet they are a hell of a lot better than a .22 or .17 rimfire. We’ll never know how many deer are made to suffer with these shells. None would be lost if none were shot with them. David Bradshaw
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Post by sixshot on Sept 14, 2017 0:37:38 GMT -5
I could fill a few truck loads full of mule deer,white tail deer, elk, bear, antelope, moose, mountain lion, feral hogs, javelina & I've never lost ONE, ever! All were with cast, maybe 4-5 even got out of sight & that's in 50 years of shooting all types of game with cast bullets. You might try telling somebody else they kill slow, or they are inferior to jacketed but don't tell me that, I can show you the photo's. It's BS, you're either making bad hits or using too hard of a bullet & I've preached it for many, many years. I have used a few HP's but very few, almost always Keith style bullets, either through the lungs or through both shoulders. Just last week I took a mule deer at 90 yds & an antelope at 122 yds using a 357 Maximum using a 200 gr cast slug. The bullet was a GC powder coated slug with a BHN of 10 running about 1550 fps. I would prefer a 180 gr cast slug but the mold hasn't shown up yet & when it does I will HP it for deer & antelope. I killed one elk at 168 yds with a Ruger 45 & a 260 gr Keith slug, one shot, double lung, blood everywhere & she ran about 30 yds with blood pumping out both sides. A 7 mag. wouldn't have killed her any quicker. No, a cast bullet isn't similar to a FMJ unless you make it like a FMJ! I will agree a HP cast is probably a better choice for deer, antelope & other medium size big game but shooting really hard bullets is & always will be a bad choice unless you are hunting the ultra heavyweights. I'll repeat it one more time, match the hardness to the speed & you will have a better out come on game.
Dick
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Post by BRASF0311 on Sept 14, 2017 19:29:47 GMT -5
Hey sixshot, do you have any recommendations for the hardness of 45 acp/colt cast bullets for speeds ranging from 800 to 1500 fps?
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Post by sixshot on Sept 14, 2017 22:04:21 GMT -5
800 to 1500 fps is a pretty wide spread but what I've always done & always tried to pass on to others is to use the softest cast bullet that will maintain accuracy. Why would you do it any other way? If you need more velocity & accuracy starts to slip then you have to go up in hardness. Powder coating will allow you to "cheat" a bit on hardness which is a good thing for the handgun hunter. A cast bullet isn't magic, neither is a jacketed bullet, especially out of a sixgun. We don't have the high velocity that can deliver the shock to an animal like the rifle shooters have, we have to rely on a wide, flat nose style bullet to do massive tissue damage at much lower speeds. Most times it's going to happen with little or no expansion but it will still work with good bullet placement & with as much velocity as you can handle & still maintain accuracy. It's the guys that over drive their loads & sacrifice accuracy that get in trouble & end up with long tracking jobs. I'll say again, a good jacketed bullet or cast HP is usually better for deer, antelope & other medium big game that a hard cast bullet although I've taken many, many dozens with Keith or LBT solids. If using solids the shoulder shot is best. I'll say again, accuracy & penetration will get you there with cast, worked for me for 50 years & I don't worry about angles. If I were shooting jacketed I WOULD worry about angles. I have some good friends who are very experienced big game hunters & they shoot nothing but quality jacketed bullets with great success, no argument from me, if it works use it. I shoot nothing but cast & they have never, ever let me down. A big bull elk that's 4-5-6 years old & been through the rutting season a few times is one tough cookie, they are hard to hunt & they are hard to kill. No, they are not just a bigger version of a deer, elk are very tough animals. The number of hunters who take them on public land with a sixgun each year is quite low compared to most other game animals, try it sometime!!
Dick
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f3
.30 Stingray
Posts: 412
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Post by f3 on Sept 16, 2017 3:25:41 GMT -5
"I have seen a handful of neck shot deer with 22 mag rifle that went nowhere but down. Same with 17 HMR. Definitely don't advocate the use. But they can be used effectively when times call for it.” ____f3 ***** These puny rounds have no forgiveness. A deer shot in the neck or head with one of these rimfires may run off to suffer and die out of reach of a tracker. No one should be encouraged to hunt undergunned. For all the explosive power of a .22-250 or .220 Swift, they are lousy deer cartridges. Yet they are a hell of a lot better than a .22 or .17 rimfire. We’ll never know how many deer are made to suffer with these shells. None would be lost if none were shot with them. David Bradshaw The sole 220 swift deer I put down with a 45 gr barnes tsx dropped on the spot.I would not argue with your experiences.Nor did I intend to.
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Post by bradshaw on Sept 16, 2017 8:58:45 GMT -5
"800 to 1500 fps is a pretty wide spread...” ----Dick Thompson
*****
A student of the sixgun should slowly read these words, allowing this knowledge from the mountain to sink in. At revolver velocities, 100 feet per second makes a difference, proportionately more so at 800-900 fps than at 1,200-1,300 fps. This piece of reality doesn’t apply just to jacketed hollow points, it applies to all revolver bullets. The velocity issue incorporates penetration and punch. On the seesaw of forum communication, one shooter seeks advice for loading a flyweight pistol with ROCKS & DYNAMITE, while another asks the advisability of hunting with a marginal round and/or bullet.
Great as the .45 ACP has proven itself in a century of battle, it occupies the low end of usable power afield. In the scheme of handgun power, the round is small, thus it is better to confine its use to small game. A ball .45 ACP works fine on rabbits and such, and for animals of much greater durability and the size dogs, .45 ball works better than 9mm ball every dreamed of doing. When we get to deer, size and durability varies widely around the country, and even among legal specimens in one location. My principle is to holster enough power to not think about it, while always thinking ACCURATE BULLET PLACEMENT.
Years ago I asked Dr. Kenneth Oehler of chronograph fame what he wanted in a deer bullet.
“FORGIVENESS,” said Ken with a smile, hefting his Remington Model 700 .30-06 loaded with 180 Hornady Spire Points. David Bradshaw
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Post by CraigC on Sept 16, 2017 21:13:17 GMT -5
...NO FMJ's (which is what a hard cast SWC is basically). Uh, what??? Hardball is a joke. A good SWC is not!
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Post by boolitdesigner on Sept 17, 2017 7:41:15 GMT -5
...NO FMJ's (which is what a hard cast SWC is basically). Uh, what??? Hardball is a joke. A good SWC is not! You need to read bradshaw's post (just above your's) several times until you understand what he and I have said. The 45 ACP at factory load levels is not a powerhouse on deer.
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Post by sixshot on Sept 17, 2017 13:24:58 GMT -5
BRASFO311, To better answer your question about bullet hardness I will most times sacrifice a bit of target accuracy & go with a softer alloy when hunting which gives me a bit of expansion many times on smaller big game like deer & antelope. Until the last few years when the Miha molds became available I've seldom ever used hollow point cast bullets. Now that you can cast 2, 4 or sometimes even 6 at a time a HP see's a little more use around my place! I've said before that a cast HP can be a better bullet for deer or antelope or small game like badgers, coyotes, etc. What I've done in the past is sacrifice some accuracy & went with a softer alloy for these animals, something in the 8-10 BHN range, especially now that powder coating has came along & helped with any leading problems that might show up from soft alloys. I don't like using gas checks in revolvers except for the 327 magnums & the 357 maximums, all others are plain based & have worked well for many, many years. If I need target type accuracy like in a pistol match, etc then I might raise the hardness to 12-15 & sometimes that will tighten groups a fair amount. For hunting I want a bullet that kills and bulls eye accuracy isn't needed for deer & elk at normal hunting distance, there is a difference! Again, if your bullet is skidding/leading then you have to go up in bullet hardness, no other way to get there. But shooting a hard bullet that's great on paper makes no sense on medium big game or even elk if you are getting pass through's & I've always shot through every elk I've taken (11) but I did raise the BHN to 10-12 for my elk & moose. This is a photo of a fork horn muley buck I shot in Wyoming a few years ago as I walked along a game trail above a small stream. I had been there 4-5 days & as usual had 2 different six guns with me, my 10 1/2" 44 magnum & my 5 1/2" Bisley 41 magnum. I would trade off guns every other day & this day I was packing the Bisley 41 magnum using a 230 gr Keith cast bullet with 17 grs of 2400. Not a maximum load but a load that has killed a lot of game, including elk & I've used it for over 45 years. The bullet hardness was about a 9 BHN but still shot plenty good for big game hunting while giving a bit of expansion even on medium game like deer. The buck was getting a drink as we spotted each other & I yanked out the 41 Bisley & set down quickly as he raised his head. An older buck would have ran, this one hesitated as he faced me straight on. The distance was right at 90 yds, can't remember but it was just under or over 90 yds. I ranged it after the shot, which happens many times when things happen in a hurry. The 230 gr. Keith took him right in the center of the chest, angled almost all the way through his body & exited behind the rib cage, in front of the right hip. He ran about 30 yds (3-4 seconds) & went down. My buddy Myron heard the shot & got on his 4 wheeler & drove down & helped me get him across the little creek & back to my camper. He cussed me for interfering with his trout fishing! Hunting accuracy doesn't have to be the same as target accuracy, a little expansion can help but you will still get great penetration with the correct alloy. The shoulder rig is my NWH by Barranti. At the time I had 2 of them but only one harness so I had the short 41 Bisley in the longer holster so I didn't have to switch the harness everyday. Dick
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Post by CraigC on Sept 17, 2017 13:40:32 GMT -5
Uh, what??? Hardball is a joke. A good SWC is not! You need to read bradshaw's post (just above your's) several times until you understand what he and I have said. The 45 ACP at factory load levels is not a powerhouse on deer. I never said it was but you're equating hardball to a semi-wadcutter and that is pure unadulterated nonsense. Which is a nicer way of saying bullsh*t. If you think that you and Bradshaw are saying the same thing, maybe it's YOU who needs to work on reading comprehension and definitely throttle back on the condescension. You're not talking to morons here.
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Post by BRASF0311 on Sept 18, 2017 20:50:11 GMT -5
Thank you sixshot for the hardness clarification. I appreciate your experience and insight. Good shot too, I wouldn't have guessed that a 41 would punch through like that at 90 yds. Very impressive.
Everyone else, please take it down a notch. We have a good thing here, let's keep it that way. Thank you.
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Post by sixshot on Sept 18, 2017 23:16:43 GMT -5
BRASFO311, A lot of people misjudge the 41 magnum when it comes to big game. It isn't a 44 magnum but when you get the 41 up there with heavier bullets it holds it's own very well. I've taken a lot game since the late 60's using the great 41 magnum & I've never seen any difference between it & the 44 magnum although there is a difference. My bullet of choice has always been a 230 gr Keith & almost always 17 grs of 2400. This is not a maximum load but it is a great hunting load, it gives me exits, shoots with great accuracy & the recoil is very easy to manage, what's not to like. This big cow elk was taken at about 45 yds as she walked up hill towards me & my neighbor as we hunkered down in the sagebrush. She turned just slightly to our right & I shot her almost straight on but behind the right front shoulder. The Keith cast bullet went through her almost length ways across her body & exited in front of her left hip. She ran around in a tight little circle for 5-6 seconds & before I could shoot her again she went down. You can see the exit by her left hip. My bullets back in those days were almost always air cooled wheel weights, usually around a 10-12 BHN. A few years ago I shot an even bigger cow at about 74 yds with my 41 Bisley & a 250 gr LBT bullet, it broke both front shoulders & exited & she never took a single step. A 250 gr bullet in the 41 magnum & a 250 gr bullet in the 44 magnum is cutting it pretty thin in the "Which is best category" Still, the 44 has a slight edge, but I'll say it again, I've never, ever seen it myself, not in 50 years until you get into heavier bullets than 250 grs. Dick
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lange1
.30 Stingray
Posts: 238
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Post by lange1 on Sept 22, 2017 16:26:57 GMT -5
I don't have slightly the amount of experience as many on this forum, and I have only shot one deer with a 45 acp, a small whitetail, with Federal 230g hydrashok. It worked great. I wouldn't shoot at the same deer with 230 ball though.
I can say that I have shot a truck-load of jack rabbits with 45 acp. My favorite load is a 200g swc at about 800 fps, and it rolls them pretty definitively. It just flattens them.
What doesn't work is 230g ball. Last one I shot with 230g ball was a huge jack that ran around at full throttle for about 2 minutes after being center punched through both lungs. It jumped over the windscreen and into the side by side my buddies were driving and bled all over them before bailing out the side and taking off again. I shot it a second time, and it had the gas left to jump maybe 3 feet high that time, and it stopped freaking out soon after, but it was still mad-dogging me when I walked up to it with the flashlight. I bet it lived for 2 full minutes after the first shot. With the 200swc and the same placement, it would have just rolled it in the dirt.
In his book, Hamilton Bowen talks about shooting a ground squirrel center-mass with a round nose 500 Special. He says that he chased it around and it required a coup-de-grace, if I recall correctly, and that he believed that a critter the size of a tall beer can would have succumbed to a half inch round through it, but apparently not.
So I would not shoot anything with round nose is what the lesson seems to be, and I don't think it's a power thing, it just doesn't do the damage that other designs seem to do.
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