BFR 30-30 7.5 inch barrel Powder suggestions

[38 WCF]

Looking for powder suggestions using the Speer 130 grain hollow point,.30
Shot mine today with said bullet and CFE223 and found very mild recoil and a velocity of 1250 fps. Charge was .5 grains below max.

[eskimo36]

Are you looking for high velocity or less blast?

[38 WCF]

Apr 2, 2017 10:14:20 GMT -5 eskimo36 said:

Are you looking for high velocity or less blast?

I would like a bit more velocity but realize that the 7.5 inch barrel combined with the cylinder gap is a hindrance.
Neither myself or my buddy who was near me while shooting noticed any remarkable muzzle blast.
I loaded up 20 rounds today with 27.6 grains of H-4198 and a 125 grain hollow point.

[bradshaw]

Apr 1, 2017 21:46:44 GMT -5 38 WCF said:

Looking for powder suggestions using the Speer 130 grain hollow point,.30
Shot mine today with said bullet and CFE223 and found very mild recoil and a velocity of 1250 fps. Charge was .5 grains below max.

*****

38 WCF.... call and ask the powder monkeys at Hodgdon. Ron Reiber may be retired but someone in the lab may be able to help.

The BFR in .30-30 Winchester intrigues me for one reason. There is an old IHMSA Champion and All-American by the name of Eric King out in Berkley plays the steel game with a revolver out to 500 meters. After Eric King broke a Seville .375 Super Mag in pursuit of iron rams @ 550 yards, I suggested he try a Magnum Research 5-shot .30-30. Recall Eric saying the long frame BFR doesn’t meet the 4-pound weight limit.

Your BFR .30-30 revolver with 7-1/2” barrel loaded with puny 130 grain bullets sounds like a definition of inefficiency. Your report of mediocre velocity with the 130 doesn’t surprise me, as the lack of hold-back (weight) makes for a shoddy burn. Having never held the BFR .30-30, let alone fired one, my inclination is to start with a Speer or Sierra 180 SP flat base----proving it clears the cylinder with neck grip on the bullet. Speer and Sierra use a sharper heel than Hornady, which may or may not matter. If the spitzer is too long for the cylinder while the long .30-30 neck provides good tension on the shank, try a 180 Round Nose. Begin with 22.5/Alliant Reloder 7 (Sierra Manual #3 lists 22.5 to 25.5 grains/RE-7.)

BL-C2 sounds like a concussion grenade when fired in the T/C Contender with 10-inch .30-30 barrel. Fireball or not, BL-C2 is accurate, leastwise in the Contender. Sierra #3 starts a 180 over 26.6/BL-C2, with a max 32.9 grains/BL-C2 in the Contender. Other powders which produce accuracy include but certainly aren’t limited to IMR 3031, Accurate 2460. As always watch for pressure signs.

Avoid boattail bullets in the revolver. Boattails are more stability-sensitive than flat base.

Revolver trajectory is steep at long range. Were I to stretch out in Creedmoor beside Eric King and go for those 500 meter rams with a sixgun, I’d want to try a BFR .30-30 with minimum 10-inch barrel preferably a 12 or 15-inch barrel; tangent rear sight supplemented with Bo-Mar or ISGW (Iron Sight Gun Works) quality fine adjustment, an Olympic grip like Eric King carved for his Seville; a minimum 1:10” twist, possibly 1:9-inch. For those yet to take on silhouettes with a sixgun at extreme range, know & believe that therevolver bullet’s angle of descent (angle of impact) shrinks the ram’s 12-inch back-to-belly measurement down to 6 or 8-inches. A small target indeed.

A note on brass: .375 Winchester brass is stronger than .30-30 brass and provided smoother extraction and better loading life in the Dan Wesson Arms .375 Super Mag. If you try it, check neck clearance with a dummy round before loading.
David Bradshaw

[38 WCF]

Mr. Bradshaw,
Excellent information and you take me in a direction I would never have thought of.
I will try the 180 grain bullet and powder you suggest and will report back later.
The ammo I have on hand is some I loaded up for my Marlin 30-30 with scope that I have been using on Jack Rabbits. I shot 12 one morning and the 130 grain load seemed to work fine in the Marlin.

[bradshaw]

38 WCF.... the .30-30 is a proven cartridge in Handgun Silhouette and would have enjoyed a long tenure, had not T/C chambered the Contender in 7mm TCU (Thompson/Center Ugalde) in 1979. Even with the 7mm TCU on the firing line. the .30-30 continued to deliver. Stated in my notes on the T/C in Sierra Manual #3, “Earlier barrels came with a1 in 14 inch twist and later models all utilize a 1 in 10 inch twist, stabilizing heavier bullets with no difficulty.” I suspect the BFR .30-30 sports a 1:10 twist. As the revolver cannot be expected to duplicate closed breech velocity, I would consider a 1:10 minimal. Look for perfectly round bullet holes on paper and preferably cardboard targets at 25, 50 and 100 yards. Given a good bullet, yaw immediately indicates one of two things: 1) instability, or 2) oversize groove diameter. Rather doubt chamber-to-bore misalignment plagues the BFR, nor a lousy forcing cone, nor an oversize .308 barrel.

The .30-30 performs with a spectrum of powders in the middle burning rate. IMR 4198 is one such propellant you seem to have on hand. For this shooter IMR 4198 delivered excellent accuracy from cartridges as disparate as the .30-30, 7TCU, 7mm BR Rem., and 357 Maximum. Match loads were always thrown from a Redding bench Rest Measure, RCBS Uniflow, or Neil Jones Custom Products measure. Once developed through weighing, competition loads are thrown by measure----specifically to include the long, skinny sticks of IMR 4198, which pass through a measure like gravel.

A Revolver Record was set with the .357 Maximum in a Dan Wesson M-40 with Vent 8-inch barrel. The Speer .357 200 grain TMJ (Total Metal Jacket) compressing 22/IMR 4198. The long BARREL TIME imparts the sensation of firing a flintlock, requiring absolutely smooth FOLLOW THROUGH. Cannot thus recommend IMR 4198 for the Maximum in a revolver. Slow but very uniform burn. Accuracy on the order of 3.5-inches @ 200 meters. Riveting consistency long as you hold like a mummy; muff a squeeze and that shot is gone.

IHMSA All-American Josie Engle set in 1980 a record with her T/C Contender bull 10-inch .30-30. For chickens, pigs & turkeys, Josie seated the Hornady 150 Spire Point over 20 gr./4759. For rams @ 200 meters, Josie seated the Hornady 168 BTHP over 37/Hodgdon 380 (H380 ball powder).

Your interest ramps my curiosity about the BFR .30-30. Please keep us tuned in. Would like to see Eric King and others demand BFR make the .30-30 with 10 to 15-inch barrel, and see what happens on rams @ 500 meters. My guess, an 8 or 9-inch twist might be indicated, but the 1:10 might do it with flat base bullets.
David Bradshaw

[dougader]

I used to load 150's with AA2460 in my Contender with the Super 14 barrel. I learned pretty fast that 2100 fps was a bit overkill for the steel targets, even to 200 meters. I've seen really wide variations for load data with the AA2460, so start low and work up to an accurate load. As I recall, I backed off my original work up when I noticed peening inside the action.

I also had wide swings in velocity with lightweight bullets like the Speer 130 grain hp.

I run 130 grain powder-coated plinkers with Blue Dot now, and have yet to work up any heavy target or hunting loads.

[38 WCF]

This is the Sierra 180 grain loaded to an OAL of 2.775     There is still plenty of room left in the cylinder.

[cherokeetracker]

Good Looking round there,,,,, I am curious about the pressure that the BFR will take? I have no experience with that pistol. With the specialty pistols and rifles (42,000) what is the rating with the BFR?
Also are you using a tapered crimp? I did not know if a profile crimp might be needed with heavier bullets, and going with powders that will give you higher velocities. ( to prevent bullet jump) David, I am sure you might be able to answer this one,,,,

My experience was with 180 grain lead in the rifle and I used a roll crimp.
My Speer and Hornady bullets I used a tapered crimp. But with both of these there is not that much recoil. And I have no cylinder to deal with.
I have enjoyed this so far and I had to agree with David when he shared to go with a heavier bullet. With the light bullets Such as my RCBS 115gr the powder choices are a little bit limited. RE7 and 322 or ,, Even Trail Boss, for a squirrel load seem to work good But when you step up to a 173 -180 grain cast or Jacketed the powder selection broadens. LT 32 has been used and some like it better than H4891. I am anxious to see some results of your efforts.

Charles

[38 WCF]

Crimp. The cartridge in the photo was crimped lightly with the size die. I have ordered a LEE Factory Crimp die and will give it a go on the next batch.
I will be unable to shoot these on Saturday as I have twin Granddaughters to tend
I am anxious to try these out and see how they recoil and check the velocity.

[bradshaw]

"Crimp. The cartridge in the photo was crimped lightly with the size die... anxious to try these out and see how they recoil and check the velocity.”
----38 WCF

*****

Good show. If at all possible, target simultaneous to choreographing. I would load 10 rounds without crimp. Target, mark each shot in notebook and correlate to velocity. Compare uncrimped with crimped rounds in this fashion. Comparison may or may not prove meaningful.
David Bradshaw

[cherokeetracker]

I agree and await results. Just for grins and giggles I will say that there will be a difference.

Charles

[38 WCF]

Shot a few more rounds through the gun today.
180 Sierra W/23.0 RL7 1425 FPS, ES is 132 FPS.
130 HP Speer W/35.4 IMR 4320 1763 FPS, ES 104

The pleasant surprise is how well the gun shoots cast bullets.
RCBS SIL 165 GR, W 23.0 H4198 1576 FPS. This bullet grouped well and right with the same impact on target as the jacketed bullets.
This was just another quick shoot to see what powder and bullet the gun likes.
Recoil with all loads tried so far has been about like a 44 Special in a 44 Magnum gun. Very manageable.
The extreme spread of the fired bullets is troubling I think.

[bradshaw]

"180 Sierra W/23.0 RL7 1425 FPS, ES is 132 FPS.
130 HP Speer W/35.4 IMR 4320 1763 FPS, ES 104

The extreme spread of the fired bullets is troubling...”
----38WCF

*****

38WCF.... the .30-30 represents a long column of powder in a revolver, while 7-1/2-inches represents a short hole to burn it. IMR 4320 doesn’t sound right for this environment. For a stick powder I’d start with IMR 4198 and try it with both bullets weights, looking closely at Extreme Spread. A bottom charge which works in a carbine with closed breech may prove inconsistent in the revolver.

Surprises me to see you record lower ES with IMR 4320 under a light 130 grain bullet... vs a low density charge of Reloder 7 under heavier 180 grain bullet. Were a Magnum Research BFR .30-30 in my hand, I’d chronograph & target 5-shot strings simultaneously to find a powder with a sweet spot.

To repeat, IMR 4198 is more versatile than it’s often given credit for. In some environments IMR 4198 achieves accuracy & consistency at pressures lower than most other medium burn powders. Then carries accuracy with consistency up through the loading range.

Extreme Spread
A high Extreme Spread does not automatically spell poor accuracy. However, inaccuracy becomes more predictable at the lower end of of a powder’s consistent burn zone.

Barrel Time
Long barrel time----when the burn rate is consistent----does not automatically spell poor accuracy. Intrinsic accuracy of the load may be extremely high, while delivery depends on PERFECT FOLLOW THROUGH. Even for a real sharpshooter, follow through can and does vary. A novice will think the the sharpshooter exercises perfect follow through even at his worst. The sharpshooter knows better and will see the difference.

Compressed Loads
Some powders may be compressed in some environments with excellent accuracy at modest to top reasonable pressure. Other powders should never be compressed. IMR 4198 is a powder that may be compressed in certain environments. The .357 Maximum is my best example. The Speer .357 200 grain TMJ (Total Metal Jacket) compressing 22-grains of IMR 4198 produced a World Record. Pressure was modest, velocity low (1258 fps @ DWA M-40 8-inch), ES small, with BARREL TIME l-o-n-g. The load worked with perfect follow through. At a subsequent match the tight CONE of DISPERSION (a coffee cup @ 200 meters) blew open. Follow through was insufficient to hold perfectly still between hammer fall and bullet exit. On this day the shooter did not have full control of the violin. This is why match shooters, given a choice between two loads of the same accuracy, prefer the load with the faster barrel time----it extends forgiveness to the human factor. (Do not construe this as a green light to substitute fast or medium powder for a slow powder in “magnum” handgun loads.)

The .30-30 Winchester in a handgun may be a brilliant child with special needs. Hodgdon BL-C2 produces competitive accuracy from the T/C Contender with bull 10-inch .30-30 barrel. Along with it comes unmistakeable concussion and a yellow ball of fire which lights up a sunny day. Don’t know whether accuracy with BL-C2 extends to your 7-1/2” barrel with cylinder gap. It’s worth a try with double hearing protection, it may flatten the clouds in the sky.

.30-30 Pressure
I expect the BFR .30-30 is well tested and built for SAAMI pressures. Photos showing good meat around the chambers, in conjunction with the BFR reputation for strength, would make me reach straight for one of these revolvers were a sortie into the steel game on my menu.

I hope Eric King and other top silhouetters read this, and take action to certify the Magnum Research BFR in its various models as legal for the 500 meter game.
David Bradshaw

[38 WCF]

Apr 19, 2017 19:25:21 GMT -5 bradshaw said:

"180 Sierra W/23.0 RL7 1425 FPS, ES is 132 FPS.
130 HP Speer W/35.4 IMR 4320 1763 FPS, ES 104

The extreme spread of the fired bullets is troubling...”
----38WCF

*****

38WCF.... the .30-30 represents a long column of powder in a revolver, while 7-1/2-inches represents a short hole to burn it. IMR 4320 doesn’t sound right for this environment. For a stick powder I’d start with IMR 4198 and try it with both bullets weights, looking closely at Extreme Spread. A bottom charge which works in a carbine with closed breech may prove inconsistent in the revolver.

Surprises me to see you record lower ES with IMR 4320 under a light 130 grain bullet... vs a low density charge of Reloder 7 under heavier 180 grain bullet. Were a Magnum Research BFR .30-30 in my hand, I’d chronograph & target 5-shot strings simultaneously to find a powder with a sweet spot.

To repeat, IMR 4198 is more versatile than it’s often given credit for. In some environments IMR 4198 achieves accuracy & consistency at pressures lower than most other medium burn powders operate at. Then carries accuracy with consistency up through the loading range.
David Bradshaw

Mr. Bradshaw,
Yes, I was surprised at the results with the IMR 4320. That was some ammo I had loaded previously for my Marlin 30-30.
I was dodging rain clouds today and did not have a chance to do more than fire off some rounds over the chronograph.
As soon as the weather cooperates I will do a test as you advise.
. This gun is built like a Russian Tank. I see no signs of excessive pressure on any of the loads tried so far. I plan on using 25.5 grains of RL 7 on the next batch.
I did shoot a few rounds at a paper target at about 50 yards and the gun is definitely accurate. Large rocks at 85 yards were child's play as well.