need to drop POI, 44mag recipe? light boolits shooting fast?

[oddshooter]

I have an EL Dorado that shoots nice small groups, but they are 12" high. The back sight is all the way down. I have added 12 layers of nail polish to the front sight post, over 12 days, increasing it a little less than 1/8th of an inch. Ten layers of Bright White, and then 2 layers of Triple Orange on top of that.

I still need to raise POI a touch more to make the back sight adjustable. To do that, I need to make up some light boolits, with good velocity, to drop the impact (POI).



I have some Hunters Supply 160g cast LFN and some Meister 180g cast LRFN.



I have bullseye, titegroup, clays, trailboss, w231, hs-6, VV n340, 4227, h110


May I assume the faster powders will get the boolit out faster, therefore helping keep barrel and boolit down?


The way I understand it, the lighter boolits are going faster and clear the barrel quicker than heavy boolits going slower. I got this from David Bradshaw who also commented somewhere about maintaining the sight picture as long as possible to keep the barrel from rising and throwing the boolit high. That's probably a horrible mangling of what Mr. Bradshaw wrote, but that's what I got.



Do any of you have a recipe that you used to specifically get your POI a lot lower? What powder, boolit, velocity, drop?  What velocity is considered fast for this application?





thanks guys for all your help.



Prescut

[potatojudge]

Yes, getting the bullet out faster will likely get you there.

I understand being reluctant to alter the front sight, but were it my gun I'd rather do that than relegate myself to light bullets with little adjustability remaining of the rear sight.

I have no idea what rear sight it uses, but you could try to find a shorter rear blade for it as well and leave the front sight original.

[Fowler]

What bullet were you shooting to get the 12" high groups? And yes to lower your POI drive your bullet faster and/or go to a lighter bullet.

[sixshot]

Either get a taller front sight or build up the one you have with some JB Weld, I've done it for years. Just put too much on there to start with then go to the range the next day & dress it down with a file until you get it regulated with the load you want & then paint it black. I Then paint it white on the sight surface & then bright orange or green for my old eyes. If you want to take it off some day it can be taken off quite easily but I've never had one pop off on it's own & I've done lots of them over the years.
This isn't my original idea but I've been doing it for a long time & it works for those of us that have a soldered sight on our guns that's too short.

Dick

[oddshooter]

OP responses:

I have been unable to find a new rear sight blade that will fit. The adjustment is all the way down now. The blade is very slim in the back sight now. Filing would not take it down nearly enough.

The factory ammo was Choice Munitions shooting 850fps with I believe is 240g.
My reloads were 240g and 250g cast SWCs. They have been very consistent accross many 44's, around 1000fps.

and sixshot,
Yes, I like JB weld and use it often on other items. It sounds like the same idea with a little more permanent attachment. I like the adjustment to center by filing after shooting idea. That gives some real flexibility in adjusting the back sight later. I might go this route if the finger nail polish gets too banged up. It is tough to get multiple layers to harden.

Sounds like you discovered the best sight trick for seniors as well. That triple orange over bright white really really stands out ! I use a Clear Gloss over the top to make it shine.
I've done it to a hundred guns for $9.

These boolits are extremely light for caliber and will run with higher velocities.
My primary question is about fast or slow powder.
Which would help hold that barrel from rising?

[sixshot]

Bullets in the 240 250 gr. range are normal for 44 magnums if that's what you are referring to. Most of us use those weights for everyday shooting/plinking. In the last decade or so the heavier weights have became quite popular because you can actually download a bit & still get great penetration or you can wind them up if you need real horsepower. When you use these heavy slugs that's when you run into a front sight problem most times. Many times the heavy slugs seem to shoot more accurately also, once you dial up the correct load.
I also like to narrow my front sights to 1/10", been doing it for about 50 years, it helps a lot when you start to get older & I fit in that bracket.

Dick

[bradshaw]

Precut.... some 180 JHPs driven hard perform outstanding work in the .44 Mag, with excellent accuracy @ 200 yards no less. Intuition tells me the same should not be expected from a 160 grain .44. Mind you, I said intuition, not experience.

The subject at hand is Point of Impact, specifically 12-inches low with range and load unspecified. Nevertheless, 12-inches low is about useless, something to be expected from a rotten derringer. Try Sixshot’s epoxy buildup caper. It may help to form a mold or dam with modeling clay. The object is to regulate the sights so you can shoot the load you want. If there is a precision TIG welder in the neighborhood...

A big meatball bullet starts slowly and takes a while to accelerate down the bore. No matter how fast it departs, it takes more time to set in motion. During this bunt gas pushes the revolver away from the bullet. Since your fist is below the bore, the bullet pushing against the standing breech lifts the muzzle. Lift at the muzzle of a few thousandths inch angles substantially higher at the target.

BARREL TIME----especially with a heavy projectile----is offset by sight height.
David Bradshaw

`

[oddshooter]

Thanks gentlemen,

I was hoping Mr. Bradshaw would come by this post as he got me started with this idea of lighter bullets being pushed harder to lower POI. His comments on BARREL TIME are priceless.
Thank you, David.

If I read that correctly:
"No matter how fast it departs, it takes more time to set in motion. During this bunt gas pushes the revolver away from the bullet."

Since the time to set in motion is at issue, can I say that means a "faster powder" will also help. Faster powders should get the boolit out of the barrel faster. Therefore not lifting the barrel as much?

sixshot,
I'm interested in your comment about that narrow 1/10th of inch front sight. I don't understand how that helps tired eyes with the sight picture. I'm always looking for improvements. Can you elaborate?

I tend to like the fat front sights that fill the back sight from side to side. That's easier for me than estimating the space on each side of the front sight.

Can I assume your eyes are different than mine? I wonder if that is the difference?
My glasses' correction is 2.5 for the front sight and 1.5 for the 100 yard target, if that helps the comparison. I'm lucky in that both eyes have the same corrections.


Prescut

[bradshaw]

“... can I say that means a "faster powder" will also help. Faster powders should get the boolit out of the barrel faster. Therefore not lifting the barrel as much?”
----Prescut

*****

Precut.... you tread dangerous water here. Yes, for a given LOW or MODERATE VELOCITY faster powder can get a heavy bullet out of the barrel faster, The hazard of taking this theory from pencil & paper to powder & bullet is to SPIKE PRESSURE, which fast powder is always ready to do.

An illustration of BARREL TIME occurred while I was developing data on the .45-70 in a Contender with 16-1/4” barrel for a Sierra manual. Sierra makes a deer-flattening .458 300 JHP for the .45-70. Loaded over IMR 4198, a slow powder for that rather light bullet, demonstrates the effect of barrel time on muzzle rise. With forend rested on sandbag and trigger guard snugged into the bag, with 4x scope on the 16-inch barrel and sighting on target @ 50 yards, a moderate load of IMR 4198 produced a 5-shot group with 150 fps Extreme Spread. The Oehler Model 33 chronograph made for exact correlation of each shop with its Point of Impact. Five shots in a perfect vertical line, the lowest velocity recording the highest shot; the fastest velocity recording the lowest shot. with three shots in between placed accordingly. A graph would not have been more accurate.

Recall a vertical spread of about 7-inches for 150 fps variation. Ken Oehler’s great Model 33 made for a perfect picture of BARREL TIME.

The Colt-inspired single action grip which works so well to conserve anatomy, is less forgiving of variation in grip pressure than the double action with a recoil shoulder at base of thumb.
David Bradshaw

[bradshaw]

Precut.... in real terms it is better to shoot the ammunition you want and adjust the sights accordingly.

We know your gun is a .44 Magnum and that it shoots 12-inches high. We don’t know your SIGHT RADIUS and the DISTANCE. To learn the height you must add to your front sight to shoot POI (Point of Aim), multiply ERROR (in this case 12”) x SIGHT RADIUS and divide by DISTANCE (to target). Each factor is measured in inches. Sight radius is measured from aiming surface of front sight to aiming surface of rear sight.. Thus, the eye focusses a ramp sight at the top edge of the ramp. Sight radius on a handgun may be be measured in thousandths with a caliper. To measure sight radius with a ruler, go for the nearest 1/8-inch (.125”).

Example
Error: 12”
Sight radius: 6.72”
Distance: 900” (25 yards)

Correction: .089” (just shy of .100” or 1/10th inch. That’s a lot of paint to add to the front sight.

If you need to correct 12-inches @ 100 yards (with same 6.72” sight radius) the formula looks like this:
Error: 12”
Sight radius: 6.72”
Distance: 3600” (100 yds)

Correction: .022”

David Bradshaw

[sixshot]

Precut, many, many year ago a guy by the name of Skeeter Skeleton wrote an article about narrowing the front sight to 1/10" from the normal factory .125" in order to gain a bit of light between the front & rear sights for those of us with older eyes or those having problems with shots stringing left & right.
This was back in the 70's & I had a gunsmith mill one of my guns to 1/10", & then another & another, etc. For many handgunners, not all, it's a great help in shooting, especially with the short barrel guns.
All the sights that I sell have this already done for those that have the pinned front sight, it's an easy change. For others you have to have a gunsmith setup your gun in a milling machine & take of .025" to get there. If your sights are centered you might want to have him take more off one side than the other, I've ran into that problem several times. Trust me, if that front sight is filling up the entire rear sight gap you can very easily get some left or right stringing in your groups, how can you not if there's no sight gap?

Dick

[oddshooter]

Mr. Bradshaw,

Sir, your posts are the most rewarding that I read. Your experience is phenomenal, but I have to say it's the little sayings I like most. "you tread dangerous waters here" says what you want clearly and doesn't offend me in the slightest. tough to do on-line.
I think I will stay with mid range powders until I get more testing done.

The barrel time real world example was priceless. Pretty easy to see the effect of that when the vertical group correlated exactly to the velocity changes. I see here you doing work for the Sierra manual which means I have one more little piece of your resume.

You may not recall, but about 2 months ago, you were gracious enough to share that formula with me when I had the correct sight radius and distance. We came up with an 1/8th of an inch to be added to the front sight. Then a little more to get rear sight adjustment.

"in real terms it is better to shoot the ammunition you want and adjust the sights accordingly"
Yep, I agree. I have enjoyed trying to learn the issues with raising a bullet or lowering a bullet's POI. The math was awesome to get back into about sight height. I guess I am a tester by nature and I do so enjoy getting into the details and different recipes for reloading. There is so much to learn that I am sure I don't have enough time left. Reading posts from experienced professionals who can write is about as much fun as I have.

I spent years in Medicine with the rule "First, do no harm". I think that's why I'm starting at the easiest and least intrusive techniques.


Prescut

[oddshooter]

Hello Dick,

Thanks for the explanation and the Skeeter story. I always like history and Skeeter has more than his fair share.

I can tell that the narrow front sight technique has helped your shooting and others from your comments. Please allow me a few more queries. I can understand what's happening if the original front sight filled the back sight or even had a little over. That would make it extremely difficult.

I may have misspoke when I wrote earlier that it filled the back sight. All of my back sights have a small sliver of light on each side of the front sight. I can clearly see the front sight edges. For me, the sliver of light should be there, but as small as possible.

When the sliver of light is large, I have to estimate what an equal amount of light on each side will be. When it is a tiny sliver of light, I don't have to estimate.

Does that make sense?


My brother-in-law, my shooting partner, was a Lieutenant in Seal Team One and he is a fanatic about not shooting guns with sights he has to estimate the space on each side. Maybe it's a virus and I got it from him.

And I am talking about benchrest and not tactical shooting. This is not quick acquisition shooting for me.


Prescut

[bradshaw]

Precut.... appreciate your kind words but please don’t let the fine print distract you from the need to THROW LEAD. Get your equipment squared away, SIGHT & SQUEEZE. Some folks prowl about who never settle on a load, they keep tweaking it. Such a person doesn’t become a sharpshooter. Experimentation is vital; get it under your belt then step to the firing line with a clear head.

I would not look for a magic bullet for the .44 Magnum. (Did I say that?) Let us put it this way: once you have a great bullet, saddle it and ride it. Learn it. All other modern revolver rounds will have to heap it on pretty deep to cover songs the .44 Mag has sung. The .44 Mag is the .45 ACP of revolver rounds, having played the accuracy game in the extreme, filling a mountain of freezers, collecting gold and forcing all other revolver cartridges to cross its shadow. Hell, weld a bead atop the ramp of your El Dorado, dress it with a file, and carry on.
David Bradshaw

[sixshot]

Precut, if you are getting a sliver of light on each side I wouldn't change anything, when you get older & that sliver is a faint memory you might need to try what I mentioned, until then as mentioned, just get out there & pound some lead down your barrel. Find a base load to start with & then you can tweak as you go, possibly trying to find a load that is better but you've been told right here in black & white by probably the best revolver shooter in the world (Bradshaw) to shoot your gun! I'm putting him right up there with Jerry, but different styles.

Dick