ProGun
.30 Stingray
Posts: 246
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Post by ProGun on Oct 18, 2016 18:11:14 GMT -5
I had a chance to buy a nice Weatherby Varmintmaster in .224 Weatherby. I had no idea what the heck I was looking at. Well, the gun was gorgeous- but .224 Weatherby?! Clueless. Hindsight of course, I should've picked it up and figured it out. Will most likely never happen across one of those again.
I am super intrigued by the 30-30 Imp and the 30-30 AI. How hard would it be to have a Win 94 re-chambered to either (Pretty simple it would seem)? And why would one NOT do such a thing?
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Post by mart on Oct 19, 2016 10:20:34 GMT -5
williamiorg,
Thank you for the write up on the 30-30 improved. Neat history.
Mart
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Post by magnumwheelman on Oct 19, 2016 14:13:21 GMT -5
Got my 38-56 reamer yesterday ( been on back order for almost 2 months ) so back onto the latest Martini project... no correct head stamp brass in my price range or quantity available... so I'm forming 45-70 cases ( I forget if I was using federal or R-P ) into 38-56 cases... thinking I should do it in 2 steps, as I can do it in 1 step, but am getting a few wrinkles... my retired machinist buddy has been telling me if i do it in 2 steps I won't get the neck / shoulder wrinkles... anyway my match 375 barrel has been sitting here for about 2 months waiting for the reamer... should be a pretty good old cartridge resurrection... now just to figure out if I can get a spire point bullet in the correct weight, or if I'll be stuck using flat nose 375 Winchester bullets  |
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Post by bradshaw on Oct 19, 2016 22:34:02 GMT -5
I had a chance to buy a nice Weatherby Varmintmaster in .224 Weatherby. I had no idea what the heck I was looking at. Well, the gun was gorgeous- but .224 Weatherby?! Clueless. Hindsight of course, I should've picked it up and figured it out. Will most likely never happen across one of those again. I am super intrigued by the 30-30 Imp and the 30-30 AI. How hard would it be to have a Win 94 re-chambered to either (Pretty simple it would seem)? And why would one NOT do such a thing? *** ProGun.... if you want to find the real or imagined advantage of a blown-out, sharp shouldered .30-30 has over John Browning's slim 19th century carbine, you may want to start with a stronger action. Old Browning was in the habit of starting with a cartridge, then wrapping a gun around it. The case was never intended for bolt action pressure; it is soft and thin. When Winchester introduced a beefed-up Model 94 for the .375 Winchester, it upgraded the brass as well. Later on, Elgin Gates made the .375 Super Mag by shortening .375 Winchester brass. We hand loaded .375 SM from trimmed .30-30 and trimmed .375 Win brass, and quickly found the .375 Winchester case extracted better from the Dan Wesson revolver, which ejects all chambers simultaneous. The .30-30 is a fine cartridge all by itself, its tapered case and sloping shoulder specially designed for feeding. To wildcat the .30-30 invites trouble in its original rifle. David Bradshaw |
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Post by rleprechaun on Oct 27, 2016 21:33:41 GMT -5
338/378 KT Shortly after Roy Weatherby introduced his 340 Weatherby round Elmer Keith took it hunting in Colorado with his friend and outfitter, R.W. Thompson. On that trip Elmer took an elk at 450 yards as well as a deer at 500. While Thompson used a 378 Weatherby for long range elk, Elmer had been an advocate of the 33 caliber bullets used in both the 333 OKH and 334 OKH. When, in the late 60’s, Thompson suggested to Elmer that the ultimate long range rifle caliber might just be the big 378 case necked down to 338, Elmer insisted that the case be shortened by .250 to accommodate the slowest Hodgdon powders of the day. With that, they got together with Fred Huntington Jr. who made up the dies which Thompson than used to form the first cases. These were subsequently sent to Keith Francis who made the reamers which were used to produce a pressure barrel. Bruce Hodgdon determined that H4831 was perfectly suited to the round and worked up data with 210, 225, 250, 275. and 300 grain bullets. The first rifle was built for Thompson by Champlin Haskins of Enid, OK. It was a full Keith Grade left handed gun stocked in a Reinhart Fajen laminate. The 275 grain speer was the favorite of both Keith and Thompson, who felt it would carry better than the 250 and 300 at long range. The first kill with the round was made by Thompson, who shot a nice Idaho mulie buck at 200 yards. After the initial testing, Keith and Thompson felt that the KT kicked less that the .378 as well as bucking the wind better at long range. The round was never very popular, but did gain a few notable admirers including Bill Jordan, who used it and the Nosler 250 partition to shoot African game up to and including cape buffalo. Also I believe that Truman Fowler, Elmers friend and the publisher of Keith’s Safari used one successfully. Elmer’s KT was made by Champlin-Haskins and was of course a Keith grade gun with all the bells and whistles, ribbed octagon barrel with integral rib, pop up front sight, extended tang and extended dragoon trigger guard to reimforce the wrist of the stock. Elmer eventually used this rifle to take pronghorn, mule deer, and 3 elk including his 50th and last bull elk. At his side the day he shot his last bull was a young Ross Seyfried. Ross , after watching a bull slapped down in his tracks at 300 yards vowed to one day own a 338/378 KT. Employing Elmer’s old gunmaker Iver Hendrickson for the metalwork and stocking the rifle himself in a gorgeous piece of quilted maple, Ross hunted the rifle far and wide, proclaiming it possibly the best trophy hunters rifle in existence. When Elmers guns were auctioned off in 2015 I had the opportunity to talk to Ross about the sale. While I was most interested in acquiring one of Elmer’s single actions, Ross told me to pay attention to the Champlin, “No one knows what they are, it will go (relatively) cheap”. Sure enough, after all of the handguns went for more than I was willing to pay, the auctioneer hammered the gavel and the Champlin was mine. Working up from 10% below the maximum of 103 grains of H4831. I found the best accuracy with 99 grains of H4831 and the 250 nosler. Using the maximum charge I was getting pinhole leaks in the case shoulder. It was then I noticed that Ross had settled on 100 grains of H4831. Asking him later why he uncharacteristically settled on a less than maximum load, he informed me that the old weatherby brass was a little soft for the full load but that he found perfect success 3 grains below maximum. Cases are a bit of a pain to form, but RCBS still offers a 3 die forming set as the cases will need to have the shoulder set back, be necked down, sawed and filed to length in the trim die, neck reamed, then trimmed to final length with a case trimmer. At that point you have usable brass that can be loaded with a RCBS 2 die set.       |
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Post by rleprechaun on Oct 27, 2016 21:35:25 GMT -5
I was at Champlin Arms when Elmer picked up that rifle.
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Post by mart on Nov 3, 2016 23:03:22 GMT -5
Guys, I started this article on the 10.75x57 with the hopes I'll get it published when I get finished. I knows it's a bit long for a post but it does give a bit of a look into this odd chambering. Let me know what you think. I'm posting what I have done so far. With current events with the family health issues it may be a bit before I get back to the range to finish up my work with the rifle. The rare and unusual 10.75x57 By Mart Weatherup We probably all have that one friend who can lead us occasionally, or perhaps frequently astray. My friend Jon is just such a guy. He has a very extensive and eclectic collection of fine firearms and is also one of the only guys I work with who speaks gun on the same level. Many in my circle of friends are quite knowledgeable about firearms in general and enjoy shooting but most are interested in newer guns. Not so with Jon and I. When the two of us get to discussing classic firearms over our breaks, you can see the eyes start to roll and the vacant looks as if we were speaking a completely foreign language. We both love fine old guns and he is forever searching the gun shops, gun shows and internet for classics. I’ve learned to be more tight lipped when we’re together. I’m afraid if I mention an interest in a firearm he’ll find it for me. And usually when I can least afford it. He’s even threatened to make sure he gets every nickel of my recent promotion with the downsizing of his collection. Great to have friends like that. In one of recent discussions in which we discussed my interest in the larger diameter x57 Mauser rounds, the topic of the 10.75x57 Mauser came to the forefront. Anyone who has known me for more than a few minutes will probably figure out that I like large bore rifles and handguns. They don’t have to be super thumpers, they just need to be big in diameter. Hence my interest in the big Mauser rounds based on the 8x57 cartridge. The 9x57, 9.3x57 and 9.5x57 are all pretty well known but the biggest of them, the 10.75x57 to this day still wears a veil of mystery. With any luck, we may be able to pull back that veil, even if only slightly. Mauser 98’s are still the bolt action by which all others are judged. For having been introduced in 1898, 118 years ago, it set the bar pretty high. There are many today who might say none have surpassed it. I would tend to agree. To this day no other action is so in demand for the building of custom rifles. But let’s get back to the task at hand, the interesting 10.75x57 for which some Mausers, and at least one Mannlicher, were chambered. The 10.75 caliber cartridges, be it x57, 68, or 73mm, translate to a .423 groove diameter. The mighty and legendary 404 Jeffery (10.75x73) shares the same bore. The 10.75x68 is a well thought of metric in many circles. Kind of a big brother to the 9.3x62. I’ve never run into a 10.75x68 shooter who had anything but praise for the round. My buddy Jon has two of them. Outside of a few guys on some of the internet forums, I’ve not run onto anyone who owns a 10.75x57. Much of its history seems to be speculation. Printed material about the round is scarce to say the least. It may have been developed as a light plains game rifle for those hardy souls headed to Africa to homestead. Others speculate it was intended for European game. In some circles it is attributed to Mannlicher as the developer. Others say it was Mauser. I’m inclined to go with the latter. In all my perusal of internet forums, books and articles, trips to gun shows and gun shops and chats with fellow fine gun enthusiasts, I’ve only ever seen one Mannlicher so chambered but have run onto numerous Mausers. Mannlicher, to my knowledge, never offered it as a chambering. As I said, I’m inclined to believe Mauser developed it and Mannlicher may have chambered a few rifles in it as a special order. The round is unique in that compared to any of the other 57mm offerings, it has almost no perceptible shoulder. With a shoulder diameter of .465 and a neck diameter of .446 there is precious little real estate on which to establish headspace. It makes the shoulder on one my all-time favorites, the 400 Whelen, appear gargantuan. It almost appears to be a rimless 444 Marlin. In fact with the exception of the rim and a few thousandths in bullet diameter they are virtually identical. The apparent lack of shoulder is off putting to some shooters. There seem to be a number of shooters who believe a round must have a substantial section of brass dedicated to establishing headspace. I’m not one of them. We ask our semi auto pistol rounds to function flawlessly with only the mouth of the case on which to headspace. Favorites like the revered 35 Remington, the recent 458 Socom and 300 Blackout have minuscule shoulders but no one puts up a fuss about them having inadequate shoulders. While our mysterious 10.75x57 has an almost imperceptible shoulder it does have one and enough to halt the forward movement of the case into the chamber and hold it in the appropriate position to give consistent and reliable ignition. The Mauser extractor, probably the largest and most powerful of any sporting rifle extractor, certainly has no problem holding the round in place in the event the shoulder was ever pushed too far back for proper headspacing. My extensive experience with the 400 Whelen, a round long thought to have too little shoulder, has proved to me a round needs far less surface than one would think to affect proper headspacing. You won’t find brass for this round. Well maybe. If you’re one of those lucky few who seem to always find needles in haystacks. For the rest of us not so blessed, brass is really not much of an issue. It can be formed from 8x57 or 9.3x57 easily or from 30-06 or 35 Whelen. I formed mine from some 30-06 LC Match brass. Dies are available from CH4D and I would imagine the other die makers would turn out dies for it if an order was placed. Bullets are a bit sketchy but they are available. Hawk has a 350 grain and Woodleigh the traditional 347 grain, the same bullet that made the 10.75x68's reputation. The rifle, a Gustave Gencho Mauser 98 with a full rib barrel. ![]()  The round loaded with the 350 Hawk. The Woodleigh 347 is beside it.  |
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Post by mart on Nov 3, 2016 23:05:04 GMT -5
It's interesting to note that CH4D lists it as the 10.75x57 Mannlicher but my research so far leads me to believe is was a Mauser development and not Mannlicher.
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eskimo36
.375 Atomic
Oklahoma
Posts: 2,049
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Post by eskimo36 on Nov 4, 2016 5:50:47 GMT -5
Very interesting Mart. I'm a 9.3x74r shooter. I find all these short fat metrics fascinating.
Thanks.
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Post by mart on Nov 4, 2016 9:56:48 GMT -5
Great round the 9.3x74. I've always thought I'd like one in a Ruger #1.
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axman
.30 Stingray
Posts: 424
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Post by axman on Nov 4, 2016 15:46:48 GMT -5
I thought I'd share one of the wildcats I had a few years ago.
My brother called me and said I ought call this guy who was advertising in the gun list, that had a Ruger #1 tropical for sale.
Being a #1 nut I called and he said he had a 460 Guns and Ammo #2 improved for sale.
I had been wanting a big bore #1, bigger than the 45-70 I already had and it seemed like a good idea. The gun was a 458 rechambered to this caliber and a better pad installed, and also came with dies and 20 or so loaded rounds.
What this cartridge is a 50 Bell basic case 3-3/8" long necked down to 45 caliber.
The loads that came with it were 600grn Barnes softpoints at 2400fps!
Reportedly 500grn bullets could be pushed past 2700fps.
I shot all of the 600's at different times and I can say it was as horrible as it could get.
The only gun that made me understand what a recoil headache was all about.
Somewhere around her is a target that I shot offhand at a railroad tie plate that is 7/8" thick. The bullets egged the off side about 3/8" and cracked the steel.
I've shot my brothers 8 bore rifle and Ross's 4 bore and it was worse than both of them.
I ended up rebarreling it to and lighter caliber with less recoil, a 450 Nitro.
Well thanks for looking.
Jim
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ryan
.30 Stingray
Posts: 402 
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Post by ryan on Nov 7, 2016 6:05:53 GMT -5
I've shot my brothers 8 bore rifle and Ross's 4 bore and it was worse than both of them.
I for one would love to hear about your experience shooting Ross's 4 bore. That would certainly fit well in this thread.
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Post by bushog on Nov 7, 2016 14:00:53 GMT -5
Very interesting Mart. I'm a 9.3x74r shooter. I find all these short fat metrics fascinating. Thanks. I've been shooting a 9.3x64 out of my Blaser R93 and man is that a thumper! Right on top of the 375 H&H balistically especially with 250ish grain bullets. Shoot the 9.3x74R in a Blaser K95 and the 9.3x63 out of the R93 also. The 9.3x62 is a 20" barrel and is a very handy rifle. The 9.3 250gn Accubonds are deadly!!! "Ain't no fleas on the 9.3s!" 9.3x74R  9.3x62  |
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eskimo36
.375 Atomic
Oklahoma
Posts: 2,049
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Post by eskimo36 on Nov 7, 2016 16:29:20 GMT -5
My 9.3x74R is a Luxus Model 11. Here with one of last year's bucks.  |
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Post by Lee Martin on Nov 14, 2016 20:34:52 GMT -5
 The .408 Winchester was a factory experimental round from 1964. Intended for the Model 94, it would compete with Marlin’s new .444 released that same year. But the cartridge never made it to production. Pressure tests showed the old ’94 wouldn’t handle the desired performance goal; at least not with adequate safety margin. Winchester loaded approximately 800 of these under lot #N260472. They came in brown cardboard boxes labeled “Experimental - .408 Winchester”, date stamped 02/28/64. Interestingly, the .408 Winchester was SAAMI registered on 07/01/65. This leads me to believe they were considering it for later release, perhaps in a heavier ’94 (as would come to pass with the XTR). The case dimensions are in between a .30-40 Krag and .30-30 Winchester. Its base mics 0.441” ahead of a 0.504”, unmarked rim. I guess you could call it a .220 Swift body with a .30-30 head, though I have no insight into wall and cup thickness. Length was held to 2.030”. To my knowledge, the only bullet tried was a 250 grain RN soft point, 0.400” in diameter. Velocity data was never released. Winchester had plans to neck the .408 to .30-cal, .35-cal, and .375-cal if the parent was successful. Fourteen years later, the .375 Winchester XTR was announced, followed by the .307 and .356 Winchesters in the 80’s. This .408 Winchester is one of the rarer cartridges from my collection:   -Lee www.singleactions.com"Chasing perfection five shots at a time" |
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