Is this a real US Patent Firearms gun?

[renton10x]

My Father in Law purchased this black powder revolver a number of years ago.  It is a copy of the Colt Third Model Dragoon and came with an owner's manual that claimed to be from US Patent Firearms Manufacturing Company.  The gun is totally un-marked except for matching serial numbers, which appear in several places.  No proof marks, no name of the company at all.  Is this a prototype or a phony gun?

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[outlawben]

I have several USPFA Single Action guns, one 1851 conversion, and one black powder.

As you may know in asking around, USPFA ( which later became USFA) , all parts for blackpowder and conversions were built of Italian parts. In being honest, nothing about the gun looks like it would be a USPFA gun. There are some fitting issues, not bad or anything, but not what USPFA put out. Since they did not make they're parts and we're basically fitting and finishing guns, they're pretty tight.. And the case hardening looks to be of the foreign finished case coloring. I think the USPFA manual was paired up to the gun as that's the only hint of origin of the gun.  I'm sure you noticed that the particular manual includes several models of Colt guns.  I don't think USPFA had revisions of that manual either, like they do on the USFA manuals where you would see all the way up to revision 7.  I mentioned that to show that it's hard to put a date on the USPFA manual, which might determine if the manual was older or newer than the gun.  I've acquired some USPFA manuals myself through eBay and gunbroker over the years, although you don't see them for sale very much.

All that being said,
I think it's a cool looking ensemble there. Very nice display and hopefully it's a good shooter for you, if you have shot it or decide to do so.
I will see what I can find out about it via the serial number so as to make a factual decision.

[renton10x]

Thanks Ben!

Someone went to great lengths to make this gun look like some kind of original. What I did not tell you before is that my FIL bought TWO of these at the gun show. So, someone made up a bunch of them for resale. I have no idea who made them. They actually shoot pretty good and are fun guns. I just don't know who made them!

Bill

[cfo1965]

There are plenty of firearms out there representing the "real thing" - but this is a copy. And whether its a copy of a copy... well. In my book it means nothing. What matters is if its made and finished well - and shoots straight. You need to take it to the range and see how it shoots, and then take it apart and assemble it again. I have seen Colt made (Italian parts) guns which just wasnt made to shoot - and where fit and finish just did not reach the mark. Terrible and expensive firearms. But if this one shoots well - stays together and is not marked with either Pietta or Uberti - then I would go with the provinence that was given you - American Made! You have to remember that replicas are cheap to make - and there is not a lot of money to be made to "fake" a copy.

Let us know how it shoots... and dont forget - you opened the thread, so now you are obliged to finish it 

[outlawben]

Here are the front and back covers of the USPFA manual that I have. Copyright 1994. I've never seen any revisions of this, but I can't ever be sure that I've seen everything or know everything ou there about USPFA or USFA.  This is the only manual that I've seen with blackpowder USPFA/USFA guns.  Maybe somebody else has some more info.
This information isn't really helping the cause or solving your gun maker mystery, but maybe we're not done yet. Somebody made the gun

[outlawben]

Like the box... I'm wondering if there is any identifying information inside or outside the display case of who may have made the box?

[renton10x]

Jan 9, 2016 17:49:52 GMT -5 outlawben said:

Here are the front and back covers of the USPFA manual that I have. Copyright 1994. I've never seen any revisions of this, but I can't ever be sure that I've seen everything or know everything ou there about USPFA or USFA.  This is the only manual that I've seen with blackpowder USPFA/USFA guns.  Maybe somebody else has some more info.
This information isn't really helping the cause or solving your gun maker mystery, but maybe we're not done yet. Somebody made the gun


answer from Renton10x (Bill)

This matches my manual EXACTLY, right down the the misspelled word COPYWRITE on the back cover (should be copyright).  How do you know your USPFA gun is real?  Is it marked with their name on it?  Does. It say USPFA on it?  My gun does not, it is blank.

[outlawben]

I have a 1851 conversion gun that I purchased from Doug Donnelly of USFA, and the barrel rollmark is USFA. I've seen a few of the black powder Guns with the USFA rollmark, but most have the USPFA rollmark.
Gary Granger is sort of our human reference book for the USFA guns and also somewhat with the USPFA guns. However, his career with USFA started in around 2005 I think. Although he wasn't with the company in the USPFA era nor early USFA, he usually knows the majority of the answers and has some other former employees to confer with. He said he was not aware of any guns that may have left without the company roll marked barrels. Could it have happened? We probably can't ever say never. An Italians parts gun go straight to Turnbulls for a finish and be sold .. Miss rollmarks..I don't I know. I just don't know enough USPFA history and how things were done to say with 100 percent certainty in regards to USPFA black powder gun marking's.
The serial number is the key. I'm wondering which brand of guns - whether Italian or otherwise - might this gun's serial likely be.

[renton10x]

As you can see, my serial number is 1921. Also, the gun was antique finished, made to look like an old Colt. Done so on purpose.

What about my case? Does it look like yours? There is no lock on it and it is not a fancy case at all. It is made of plywood and is

stained.

[outlawben]

These type guns that I've seen sold online and mine have factory type black boxes.

[CraigC]

USFA did do percussion guns but I'm inclined to say that this isn't one of them.