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Post by Encore64 on Oct 26, 2017 0:37:00 GMT -5
I'm sure anxious to hear how 2400 does in the Jackrabbit and try it in the 250 GNR. Think it might just be ideal for light bullets. All this info should be useful in the 25-20 from JRH too. Getting that one primarily as a heavy bullet gun. But, will have to see what it does. I might have to beat you out of some of those slugs you were telling me about that expanded in the 12-1300 range. I have plenty room in the Jackrabbits cylinder and that one sounded pretty neat. I was looking on my bench and I have some LBT flat points cast up, I think they were 60 grainers, I have to take a page out of Rod's book too and maybe work on a small game meat preserving load instead of these flying claymores I doing now.... Fermin, I plan on sending you some those. They are 85 grn Remington FP and put the lights out quick on critters. Also have lots of Meister 85 grn cast with traditional lube and Missouri Bullets 85 grn cast with HyTech coating. Let me know if you want to try any of those. I'm going to shorten some Sierra 75 grn HP spitzers and give them a bigger HP too. The 250 GNR will allow this due to the short case.
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Post by 2 Dogs on Oct 26, 2017 1:13:40 GMT -5
I might have to beat you out of some of those slugs you were telling me about that expanded in the 12-1300 range. I have plenty room in the Jackrabbits cylinder and that one sounded pretty neat. I was looking on my bench and I have some LBT flat points cast up, I think they were 60 grainers, I have to take a page out of Rod's book too and maybe work on a small game meat preserving load instead of these flying claymores I doing now.... Fermin, I plan on sending you some those. They are 85 grn Remington FP and put the lights out quick on critters. Also have lots of Meister 85 grn cast with traditional lube and Missouri Bullets 85 grn cast with HyTech coating. Let me know if you want to try any of those. I'm going to shorten some Sierra 75 grn HP spitzers and give them a bigger HP too. The 250 GNR will allow this due to the short case. It will be interesting to see if those 85's stabilize in my 257 JR and I'm thinking 14-1500 fps would be excellent sixgun speed for those. I'll be watching to see how those 75's work for you. When I cut HPs in the 60 grain Hornadys the accuracy went down the tube from my sixgun BUT when I tried them in my 25-20 Carbine they shot great. Speaking of, I wonder how long it's going to be before you scare up a 250 GNR Lever gun!
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Post by Encore64 on Oct 26, 2017 5:56:21 GMT -5
I'm not sure of what advantage the lever gun would bring.
The cartridge would be a little behind my 25-20 Marlin 1894 and 256 WinMag Marlin 62.
I did add the new Henry 327 Federal and have much to learn and do with it.
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Post by sixshot on Oct 26, 2017 12:44:17 GMT -5
What! no more flying claymore's from Fermin, slowing those loads down! I almost choked on my biscuit!! Interesting stuff all around guys, you are doing some great stuff & I'm enjoying the ride. It isn't easy plowing new ground as you know, have to take it slow & easy with the powders, case set back issues & all. Keep it up & one of these days I'll furnish the Jackrabbits....and biscuits, and gravy, and huckleberry milkshakes, and peach cobbler, and cinnamon rolls, and cheese cake, and dutch oven chicken & taters!
Dick
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Post by 2 Dogs on Oct 26, 2017 18:22:06 GMT -5
What! no more flying claymore's from Fermin, slowing those loads down! I almost choked on my biscuit!! Interesting stuff all around guys, you are doing some great stuff & I'm enjoying the ride. It isn't easy plowing new ground as you know, have to take it slow & easy with the powders, case set back issues & all. Keep it up & one of these days I'll furnish the Jackrabbits....and biscuits, and gravy, and huckleberry milkshakes, and peach cobbler, and cinnamon rolls, and cheese cake, and dutch oven chicken & taters! Dick As much as I miss my buddy Dick, having him on the range with me today would have been hazardous for him for sure. Certainly bad for my back. Let me explain.... The wind was blowing so hard I normally would have just forgone trying to set up my chronograph as it typically blows over every shot. On that odd day however when the wind blows right into my face it just doesn't seem to catch the chrono and I can get some work done without having to go pick it up out of the dirt every 15 seconds. Contrast that with my old buddy Dick hangfiring off one of his flintlock 480 big red bullet loads. You could bet biscuits or big bucks that sure enough the strong north wind would catch that big holler point and send his sedentary scarlet slug sailing right back into his skull and probably knock him out cold. Even if I had some mules in a trailer in the back of my truck how in the world would I haul Dick off? Can't draw and quarter him, can't tag him, and I sure don't want no ambulance crew looking at me all like "why did you call us you need a wrecker".... I guess I could borrow Callshots glass eye off him. I could put it on a pole and pretend I'm really tall. And handsome...
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Post by 2 Dogs on Oct 26, 2017 21:11:52 GMT -5
Ok, so I am still working BACKWARDS on the burn rate chart. I am looking for linear increases in velocity with small powder charge increases NOT the wide velocity swings we were seeing before. Today I was working with 2400. Keep in mind I am loading by volume, with small charge increases, and watching for signs of excessive pressure. Same Miha 55 grain GCHP and Winchester Small Pistol Primer.
11.2 2400 1755/1657/1727 11.7 2400 1760/1809/1750 12.0 2400 1855/1814/1802 12.5 2400 1883/1868/1913
As the powder charge starts getting into the neck and closer to the base of the seated bullet, the velocity starts to get more stable. At 12.0 grains of 2400 the powder charge is slightly compressed. At 12.5 grains of 2400 the last round clocked 1913 and the primer flowed back enough to tie up the little sixgun. One has to wonder if a thick cup rifle primer like a Remington 7 1/2 would allow the 257 Jackrabbit to tolerate that powder charge without so much flow back. I am considering exploring that but in the meantime, I have to remind you not to try this at home! I might also point out here that 2400 is my powder of choice for high velocity in the 44 magnum with the 215 grain 429215 bullet!!
Charles, I'm sorry, I was a bit off when I was running this past you with my numbers. If you don't mind, use the chart here to compare with your computer data.
Huey, give me your thoughts on using a rifle primer for this light bullet big case and 2400 powder combination.....? I think AA#9 would next in burn rate, what are your thoughts for that powder with the big case and light bullet?
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Post by Encore64 on Oct 26, 2017 22:39:45 GMT -5
Well, the 2400 numbers look great. Maybe back off a grain and try different primers. I'm seeing spreads in the 30-50 fps range? Think for this speed demon I'd be pleased.
#9 should work great too. Between 2400 and 296/110 if I remember right.
You're certainly getting there.
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Post by dougader on Oct 27, 2017 0:08:43 GMT -5
Hornady and Speer use small rifle primers in the 327 Federal data.
If you know the strength of your cylinder is good into 40-45k psi (like the 327), then maybe that's one way to go without running into primer flow or pierced primers.
But you also take away one marker for high pressure loads where we might want to start backing off on the powder charges...
I would definitely back off the starting charge and start over when switching primers to small rifle.
A thought: would your wide swings in velocity tighten up using a SR or SR mag primer with 296 powder? Again, backing off and starting over with the data...
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Post by 2 Dogs on Oct 27, 2017 0:20:07 GMT -5
Hornady and Speer use small rifle primers in the 327 Federal data. If you know the strength of your cylinder is good into 40-45k psi (like the 327), then maybe that's one way to go without running into primer flow or pierced primers. But you also take away one marker for high pressure loads where we might want to start backing off on the powder charges... I would definitely back off the starting charge and start over when switching primers to small rifle. A thought: would your wide swings in velocity tighten up using a SR or SR mag primer with 296 powder? Again, backing off and starting over with the data... There’s really no way to know what without backing off when you change a component and working back up the ladder. Honestly, I’m quite sure 1800 fps will do all anyone would expect. Still, it does seem to me we are in the pressure range better tolerated by rifle primers. All this has taken a good while to hammer out. My thanks to all the faithful who have stayed with me and offered encouragement along the way.
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Post by mart on Oct 27, 2017 12:25:02 GMT -5
1900fps! That's hoppin right along. Sorry. I couldn't resist the pun on a 257 Jackrabbit thread.
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Post by 2 Dogs on Oct 27, 2017 13:09:00 GMT -5
1900fps! That's hoppin right along. Sorry. I couldn't resist the pun on a 257 Jackrabbit thread. Getting where we could’ve called it the 257 Acme Rocket Coyote!
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Post by cherokeetracker on Oct 27, 2017 13:55:36 GMT -5
Ok I was busy all morning long with other things and did not get back as soon as I thought. I also had to work on a car yesterday after we talked Fermin.
We talked about the primer use. I had to agree with you Fermin on the choice of primers with the selections of the powders. I strongly believe the Remington 7 1/2 would be a better choice with the last three loads tested. BTW it is the BR ( Bench rest ) primer as I mouthed off on the phone. Haaa Anyway these primers are supposed to handle the higher pressures. I cannot prove or disprove this, And as of late the information from Remington just does not state anything about this. I am going by old information I had and some older tests. SO that being said let's not get into a discussion about the cup hardness and anvil design. I did relate my findings to Fermin involving my own wildcats in rifles. Trust ME !!! Fermin is NO stranger when it comes to rifle wildcats either. The 7 1/2 from REM is a primer that is considered by many to be a magnum primer. It will give much better results than some other brands I believe. For lighter loads the use of a different primer should be fine. Especially using something like Unique powder. We may find that with each different Bullet ( design, brand and weight ) it may be necessary to swap primers, and the powder selection could be totally different. This is not that unusual.
That being said I have to tell you I know from vast experience trying to shoot here in Texas outdoors can be a challenge. With wind like we had yesterday and Fermin shooting into it? I am surprised they gave as good velocities as they did. No way are you going to be checking for accuracy. I was surprised the bullets didn't boomerang and end up being Fermin somewhere, or the wind catching them and they end up being 2 foot high on the target. MY theory also is that once we can establish some loads with smaller deviations, hopefully these will relate into a load that will prove to be more accurate. Then it will be time to tweak for accuracy and then field test the bullets.
Doug : you said something about backing off when switching to small rifle primers.... The 25-20 uses them ( small rifle primers) from the start, and this is the "Parent brass" that the 257 jackrabbit uses. Huey has the 250 GNR that uses the small pistol primers. Fermin did use the small pistol primers in his test. I will say again that nothing takes the place of a good pressure barrel accompanied by a good chronograph. I know Fermin will back off a little, when it comes time to continue testing. He is NOT going to blow up that beautiful gun.
I was excited to find that at the 1800 mark, things seemed to settle a little. What more would you want from this little cartridge. I am just guessing, but if the accuracy is par with the velocity, then Not just with jackrabbits, but I am figuring that some other critters should be on the lookout. That 55 GT bullet would probably blow up about an 1" to 1 1/2" inside an animal. With what has been discovered, with the little bullet, makes me anxious to see what the heavier bullets will do.
Charles
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Post by 2 Dogs on Oct 29, 2017 16:50:33 GMT -5
Ok, Rifle Primers. First surprise, I don't have any Remington 7 1/2's. I was pretty shocked. But, not to be derailed, another primer that has the same cup thickness, the CCI 450 Small Rifle MAGNUM primer was on hand. As I have stated over and over, caution should be the rule here and while my little sixgun is well overbuilt (Harton calls it Tank Tough) I don't want to bend it in the slightest. So, I packed up all my moblile loading gear and headed off to the range. I had set the powder measure for my starting charge with the pistol primers at 11.2 of 2400 on the little Bob bullet and capped it off with the Rifle Magnum Primer. Imagine my surprise when I fired that round and saw this: Unfortunately the primer did flow back and I could feel it dragging onto the breech face. I was forced to work DOWN with 2400 but arrived back where I started with not enough powder fill in the case to prevent position sensitivity. I think H110 or Lil Gun might do better, but that remains to be seen. Here is a shot of my mobile loading set up. Easy to set up with C clamps. Last, Bob has been after me to shoot a target to check and see how his little wonder is holding up. I moved the target in to 20 yards so I see the damn thing a little bit better and managed this one. Unfortunately I wasn't shooting one of my 1800 fps loads. I shot this one seated backrest with the JR supported in between my knees. I will shoot another one for ya Bob as soon as I get my prescription fixed.
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jsh
.327 Meteor
Posts: 884
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Post by jsh on Oct 29, 2017 19:47:37 GMT -5
Are those channel locks for turning the cylinder when a primer drags? :-)
This is my findings on the 32-20/30-20 in a TC and BF platform, concerning primers. My light cat sneeze loads using BE and a 120 cast, I use a pistol primer. I tossed this around because of my findings as others have with a 22 hornet and light loads. To much primer pushing the bullet out and then powder ignition,or we guess. So, I went with small pistol primers for the standing type loads we used.
Also on the 32-20/30-20 TC and BF platform. Being able to load a bore riding bullet, I shot a few 155's then went to the RCBS 165 Sil mold. I never used any pistol primers with these, as I was using pretty much a case full of AA#9 and later a specific lot of WC820 milsurp powder that showed to be exactly the same as my AA9. Be aware I have another lot that mirrors 2400.
With the above findings and having shot a pile of 32-20/30-20 through both of these rigs, I started in from the get go on my Buckeye with rifle primers, WW or CCI is what I normally have on hand. I have used both AA9 and lilgun in the Buckeye with a 140 CB that runs around 1500 FPS. Never had any primer issues with the stock Buckeye.
Then, once again no adult supervision, and I have started tinker with sub caliber rifles 17 and 20's. 17 hornet I did a fair bit of reading on, pressures are such in the 17HH always use a rifle primer. And for various reasons guys say just to go with a Rem 7 1/2 from the start. Acquired a CZ 452 in 17 Remington, consensus use a 7 1/2 from the go here as well,pressure.
Dunno if any of the above does one lick of good or ya already found that out prior to the 25's in work with the little 30's. Jeff
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Post by dougader on Oct 29, 2017 21:14:15 GMT -5
Wow, quite a jump in pressure with the CCI 450 and 2400. I was mainly thinking H110 when I brought up trying rifle primers.
I don't recall where I read it exactly, Speer 13?, they talk about using std primers with AA9 and 2400 as the increase in chamber pressure was quicker than any significant increase in velocity. I think this was in 44 mag.
Maybe some crossover here as well??? I am very interested to see how it goes with the 450 and H110 and Lil Gun.
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