Velocity Minimum for Handgun Hunting (bear, deer, elk)?

[5shot]

I have read a ton on hunting with big bore handguns over the last 20+ years and one thing that has always been evident, in the writings of whoever, is that a cast bullet of sufficient weight for the task usually bores deep into the animal and takes out the vitals, doing its job.

Recently, on a forum, a member indicated that a velocity of 1300fps or more was required to do the job correctly, and that less than that did not provide enough "slap" to put the animal down quickly.  In many of the previously mentioned articles the writers would indicate certain loads as being good for big game that barely reached 1000fps, and many fell slightly short of that.

I am not arguing that more might not be better, but I have always held to the belief that the animal won't notice a couple hundred feet per second. 

Any input from you guys who have some experience (unfortunately I have not had the pleasure of taking anything with my Bisley)?

[Fowler]

I always love when people put random values as absolutes, I guess that is why my 255gr Keith bounced off that buck a couple weeks ago when it was going only 1000fps. I guess the 45 colt generated its reputation for darn near 150 years with a 250gr bullet at 850ish FPS because of a fluke. I read for years a sinsible minimum for elk was a bullet going 3000fps and generating 2000 pounds of energy, anything less was foolish to hunt them with. Guess the 30/06 is a foolish gun to carry for elk then right?

The bottom line is bullet placement, "slap" is bullhooey anyways, animals die from shock caused buy a bullet destroying vital organ systems that allow an animal to live. Put a hole through through their vitals and the animal will die, some loads might kill a triffle quicker, some might cause quicker bleeding and a heavier blood trail, but they will all die.

I feel a good load at 800-900fps is a sinsible minimum for deer sized animals if you use a good cast bullet and then place the bullet correctly. It is more about the skill of the handgun hunter than the load really.

[gjn]

For the big bores (475,500,510) I use LBT WFN's in the 390 to 440 range loaded to 1100 to 1150. The only bullet I ever recovered was one I dug out of the dirt after it went thru a cow elk. As long as the bullet was well placed nothing I've hit has gone very far and I don't believe more velocity would have made any difference.I'm not much of a fan of the recoil once velocity starts getting over 1200 and the only benefit I see is reduced trajectory but I limit my shots in most cases to 100-125 yards so it really doesn't make much of a difference.

[Ken O'Neill]

In my view, there is no absolute answer. One has to answer questions about the type and size of the game pursued, the caliber chosen, the bullet weight, the construction of the bullet, whether jacketed, cast, or monometal, and the likely terrain and distance.

In my own hunting experience when using revolver cartridges, I have generally chosen to use velocities between 1200-1300 fps or a bit more. This has given me a similar trajectory across many calibers / cartridges and has made that element of hunting and shooting simpler, as I hunt with a wide variety of guns and cartridges. That velocity also gives an assist if one is using JHP's.
If one hunts with JHP bullets, more velocity will be required than with equivalent weight hard cast bullets, to optimize the performance and expansion of the JHP's. Contrary to a belief held by some, the penetration of such bullets shot from revolvers is also increased as velocity is increased.

Much game has been killed with bullets leaving the muzzle at 900-1000 fps, and even less. Game has also been missed and wounded with them. I view this as a matter of personal choices and prejudices. In my own case, I've never felt that I have over-killed any game that I've taken, so I'm comfortable with my choice.

[whitworth]

I would argue that hardcast bullets shouldn't be driven very hard or the degradation of the nose will limit the bullet's ability to penetrate. The material is the limiting factor. I think an impact velocity too far north of 1,300 fps isn't desirable. But that is the beauty of the hardcast bullet. They don't need to be pushed hard in order to be effective. One of the hardest hitting (bar none) loads I have ever witnessed on big game was the 525 grain .500 Linebaugh load from Buffalo Bore that leaves the barrel at a scorching 1,150 fps.

[5shot]

I should probably clarify a few things about my equipment, just so we all know where I am coming from. I have a Clements 5 Shot Bisley in 45 Colt, an Alaskan in 454/45 Colt and a factory Bisley 45. All have open sights, so 50yds is my self imposed limit...not that it has anything to do with me not filling my tag!

I have molds that cast slugs from 255 grains on up to 360, and a good range in between.  I heat treat when I really hot rod them, and leave them as cast otherwise (WW + 2%).  I don't mind the recoil of a 360 @ 1350, but I certainly don't feel that I want to shoot it all day. Accuracy with those bruisers probably isn't where I would like it, so I often shoot milder loads. Ruger only loads for the factory gun are obviously not going to break 1300 with the heavy stuff. More like 1100 and some change.

I'll do my part and put a few thousand rounds down range over the next year and maybe next year will be my chance to punch a tag with one of my pistols.

[sixshot]

5shot, you said something very interesting in your last reply. You said accuracy isn't quite where it should be with the big bruisers. If you are hunting game you have to make accuracy your #1 priority, then you want it to penetrate, hopefully through & through. Actually many bullets will do that, you just have to match the correct bullet to the game intended, really big game usually requires really big bullets. Top velocity isn't necessary but accuracy & penetration is a must, that can be accomplished with both cast & jacketed. Re-read what Ken O'Neil said about jacketed slugs, he absolutely knows what he's talking about & has taken many very large critters with quality jacketed slugs & some of them were mad at him for shooting them!
Velocity is great as long as you are getting accuracy & can handle the recoil, if accuracy is suffering & recoil is getting to you then your velocity is hurting you, not helping. A cast slug has a bigger meplat that a jacketed slug & acts much like a solid, it penetrates straight & true, a jacketed slug is velocity dependent to work properly, that is, if you want some expansion you need to be in a certain velocity range to make it happen. As Ken mentioned, you need to know the target (animal intended) & build your load accordily. Almost every animal I've ever taken from deer, bear, elk, antelope, lion, moose & african game has been shot between 1100-1200 fps with complete penetration & always with cast of at least 250 grs, others may have different results.

Dick

[5shot]

Thanks for all the info guys. I will be spending the winter casting, sizing and lubing. A little shooting, but will be waiting for it to warm a bit before really hitting the range hard. That will give me some time to stock up on primers and powder as well.

[Cholla]

I don't have a lot of experience, but I'll submit what little I have, all with the .44 Special at this point, all from last year.

The first was a doe shot at about 16 yds., almost broadside. 258 gr. cast (ACWW) SWC @ 934 fps MV. The bullet broke a rib going in and another going out. She loped off 50 or so yards and expired.
Second was the buck in my avatar. With the same load as above, the first shot (unknown to me) hit a small mesquite and was tumbling when it hit the buck at about 20 yds. in the left flank. After a short wait, I jumped him up and shot him with my 1873 lever action .44 Special at about 100 yds. or so. That shot hit him in the left flank and the bullet traveled up to the juncture of his neck and right shoulder. Impact velocity was about 1050 fps.



Third was another buck. This time I used a 50/50 ACWW/lead cast 252 gr. SWCHP @ a little under 1000 fps MV. buck was a hair under 50 yds. when the bullet hit him low in the right shoulder, creased the heart then exited the left shoulder. He trotted off about 30 yds. and died.



I often wonder why folks shoot huge revolvers loaded to the gills at whitetail, but I remind myself that people do the same by hunting them with 300 Weatherby's and the such.

Now, what I've read from Brian Pearce:
Mule Deer buck at 80 yds. shot with a 45 Colt loaded with a 45-270 SAA (285 gr. SWC) at 900 fps MV.
Bull elk shot at over 100 yds. with a Colt New Frontier .44 Special loaded with a ~250 gr. SWC @ 1200 fps.
"Several mule deer" with a 250 gr. cast SWC trailing from 900 - 980 fps.
I can't locate the exact reference but he states a 45 Colt loaded with a 250-255 gr. bullet penetrate a bull elk broadside.

From John Linebaughs page:
"My wife has taken around 6 antelope and 5 mule deer with her .45 Colt. She uses a 4 3/4" Seville and the handload is a 260 Keith cast at 900 fps. This load will shoot lengthwise of antelope and mule deer at 100 yards."

so there's my teeny bit of experience and the experience of a couple of guys I respect.

[5shot]

I think I'll be just fine then. I can go heavy if need be and sane for the 99%.

As luck would have it, I nabbed 4 lbs of HS6 on the way home from the bank...would have taken more if my $$$ would have allowed it. I have 30+ lbs of WC820 in the reloading room too, so I should be good to go. Primers will be the only thing lacking, but I have several K.

[contender]

In my humble experience,, I'd look long & hard at what Ken & sixshot have posted. Both of these gentlemen speak with lots of experience.

[cmillard]

hmmmm, shot placement is key. when Iowa started to allow handguns for deer hunting, I gave it a try that very first year. this was before I got into hand loading. so, I used my springfield trophy match with factory cci speer with a 200 grain GDHP. 35 yards, tip of the heart, ran about 25 yards and expired. would the same bullet fired at 1300 have killed any more quickly or effectively, don't know, but that bullet at factory velocity in a 5" barreled 1911 .45 ACP worked for me.

[whitworth]

Dec 8, 2014 21:28:13 GMT -5 Cholla said:

I often wonder why folks shoot huge revolvers loaded to the gills at whitetail, but I remind myself that people do the same by hunting them with 300 Weatherby's and the such.

I can only speak for myself, but I will typically develop one load for any given caliber, to be used over a wide range of different animal species. So the load I use on a moose, or some other big critter will be the same load I use on whitetail, black bear, hogs, etc. I think there is a huge advantage to getting very familiar with a load. Are the big boomers necessary on deer? Nope, but that's never stopped me from using them.

[bulasteve]

I'd say it's difficult to define a minimum level of velocity. Better to find a level that gives you confidence and then look for accuracy. The one bullet/load advice is good, but I seem to be in the constantly trying new to me stuff. I need to take that advice myself. I think that more velocity beyond the level that gives you confidence and where you find accuracy only buys you more range. You'll have to decide if you are skillful enough to make use of that.

[Ken O'Neill]

In his follow-up post, 5shot has said that his self imposed limit is 50 yards. In that case, trajectory is a topic that can largely be ignored, and velocity increases for that purpose are certainly not necessary. Type of bullet and accuracy can rule in decision making in that instance.