Introduction to .454 Casull

[seancass]

Jun 8, 2013 16:59:19 GMT -5 bradshaw said:

I suppose we could start a silhouette game for the heavy bullet/high velocity crowd. Fabricate silhouettes at the shipyard: buffalo, elephant.

David Bradshaw

Mr. Bradshaw, Thanks for the reply. I had noticed 2400 can't reach the same peak velocity as h110/296. After a little more reading, i think a good place to start is with a lot more h110/296. If i need to push these bullets hard to get acceptable accuracy, then i will. I can get other, more versitile(Lighter!) bullets for the day-to-day plinking. I've only made a few loads for this gun, so i'm very much just getting started.

In a related question, my 265gr bullets(Cast Performance, Gas checked), are just a hair over sized. When chambering in the 454, the loaded round goes in to the last 1/10th of an inch, then has to be pushed in the last bit. Taking just the bullet, pushing it thru the cylinder the wrong way, it shaves off a little bit of lead, but it can be done by hand. I guess i need to mic it before and after so i have more to tell you. (I'm not at home right now) Is this likely to cause extreme pressures? I'm a little torn between saying the bullets too big and it's causing excessive pressure or is it just lead, it loves being a little over size.

To your idea of silhouette buffalo and elephant, i would sign up for that game in a heartbeat! Not because I crave the biggest and baddest handcannons, but because i think i could actually hit an elephant sized target at 20 yards!

[cmh]

Questions............ I had a SRH last summer in 454 casull and it was a boomer but had alot fo trouble with it jumping crimp with hornady factory ammo and dont know what was going on as I had the revolver checked out by two smiths and myself.......... but after the first shot each shot after that would cause my face to get peppered with somehthing (never did figure out what it was) but ended up with small bloody spots all over the left side of my face. No sign of shaving or it being out of time........ I was on the road at the time so could not reload etc. Was really jazzed about teh caliber when I got it but needless to say it left a bad taste in my mouth. I loved everything I have ever read about the round but.......... How different of a beast is the round in something like a Freedom Arms or a BFR??? I know that its capable of cleanly taking about anything on four legs but I after the SRH disaster Im just not sure about it. Thanks

[groo]

Groo here
The 454 is a special case , not until the 460 S&W did you see the pressures.
It was developed in a time when the biggest thing was the 44 mag in a revolver.
The FA was the only gun in454 at the time and I had data for loads that would go 80,000 psi.
Also we were told to always put brass in all chambers as the gas pressure could damage the loading gate.
The gun would take it and with tight chambers , so would the brass,
The problem was bullets.
45 ACP and Colt jacket bullets could not stand the pressure, blowing the core from the jacket or the HP would fall from the shock of fireing
and leave the barrel looking [or at least acting on paper] like a full wade cutter.
Modern factory loads are somewhat lighter than our monster loads but still no lightweight.
The damage to your face was most likely powder from the bc gap [you can hardly see daylight in mine] my face got dirty but no blood.
But I always shot heaver powder charges with 296.

[bradshaw]

Seancass.... When you must press a cartridge into the .454 Casull chamber, you tread into the zone of unforeseen problems. Elevated pressure is just one, perhaps the least of them. You don't want a torn off piece of brass or jacket to wedge the cylinder/barrel gap. While pressure is almost certain to rise (which may mean nothing to the Model 83), accuracy steps down, and reliability is subject to plunge. Know also that in a tight revolver, a high primer (never good) is a total NO-NO.

Provided a correct launch environment, pushed fast or slow, a balanced bullet should fly straight. (Bevel base cast bullets constitute an exception, as they may fly comfortably subsonic very straight indeed, yet disperse when pushed fast.)

Noticed many years ago that some revolvers shot a particular bullet more accurately when pushed hard. The effect may be caused by dimensional irregularities which require the bullet to slug up, always undesirable. This slugging up is the operative principle of the hollow base Minie Ball, which washed the battlefields of our Civil War in blood. The Minie Ball was cast purposely undersize to facilitate ramming down rifle barrels fouled with black powder. Often, of course, after a shot or two, matters turned to bayonets and buttstrokes. Snipers greatly preferred their bullet to fit the groove from the start, as the fast reload cartridge was inimical to their brand of marksmanship.

Even Bill Ruger, Sr., subscribed conceptually to the "slug up" obturation effect in magnum revolvers, as I learned in lively exchanges. This digression is necessary to show the rationalization prevalent in the 1980s for some sloppy fit-ups in manufacturing. (A particular burr in my hide----the oversize forcing cone, to which both S&W and Ruger resorted in the early 1980's, in a misguided attempt to eliminate spitting from eroded forcing cones, and poor chamber-to-bore alignment.)

***
CMH.... I suspect that the SPITTING you experienced with your SRH .454 Casull may be attributable to one or more of the following:
* Chamber-to-bore misalignment (offset).
* Rough forcing cone.
* Off axis forcing cone.
* Excessive cylinder/barrel gap.
* Endshake (cylinder fore & aft movement).
* Rough chamber throats (unlikely, in my experience).
* Undersize chamber throats (I haven't encountered).
* Abrupt leade (transition of cone to rifling).
* Timing, speciifially CARRY-UP, or failure of cylinder to be locked at hammer fall. (Extremely unlikely with SRH).
* Spitting of combustion particles from loads which have jumped crimp.

High pressure rounds----35,000 psi magnums, on up----take offense at dimensional irregularity in a revolver. High pressure always looks for a way out. Like a hurricane, high pressure is know to bring along crap that gets in its way. The higher the pressure, the more important tolerances and alignment become.

While in speaking of elevated pressures in a revolver I may sound casual, pressure upwards of 40,000 psi in a revolver is anything but casual. We have revolvers which take the pressure better than the brass. The brass case is the head gasket of a cartridge firearm. Blow, melt, fuse, or vaporize the brass case, and that bull is out of the pen. Note that a so-called working load of 60 to 65,000 psi calls for a SAAMI proof load in the 95,000 psi range----pressure behavior very difficult to gauge (so I am told). There is nothing remotely casual about a cartridge at 80,000 psi.

Note also that an up-loaded voluminous case produces a very high cycles-per-second sound wave, thus horrific muzzle blast.
David Bradshaw

Not familiar with the Hornady load you shot. Perhaps there is roughness at the crimp, between bullet and case mouth.

[seancass]

Jun 12, 2013 11:19:16 GMT -5 bradshaw said:

Seancass.... When you must press a cartridge into the .454 Casull chamber, you tread into the zone of unforeseen problems. Elevated pressure is just one, perhaps the least of them. You don't want a torn off piece of brass or jacket to wedge the cylinder/barrel gap. While pressure is almost certain to rise (which may mean nothing to the Model 83), accuracy steps down, and reliability is subject to plunge. Know also that in a tight revolver, a high primer (never good) is a total NO-NO.

Mr. Bradshaw,

Last night, I made up one more round of 454 with my 265gr Cast Performance bullets. I needed to try out my new Lee Factory Crimp die! When i said they wouldn't seat the last tenth of an inch, i exagerated. It's more like 1/2 the thickness of the rim! Just Barely sticking out! That's frustrating! It looks like i can either start shopping for a sizing rig, or just toss all these into the growing pile of 45 Colt bullets and shop some more! I've heard only good things about Cast Performance bullets(so far) and i'd Really like to shoot these out of the 454!

Is there any potential problems with running gas checked and lubed bullets thru a sizer, not applying any further lube? Would you recommend any one sizer set up over another? I have no intention of casting my own any time soon, so volume would be very small.

So far, primers are seating below flush, haven't seen any issues there.

Thanks again!

[paul105]

I have an older (late 80s) Field Grade .454 that I had trouble fully seating loaded Freedom Arms factory ammo. It turned out this was due to the abrupt shoulder between the chamber and throat. John at FA reamed (chamfered) the shoulder – problem solved. You don’t need to send the entire gun (just the cylinder) and turnaround time should be fairly quick. This does not enlarge the throats, but will allow you to easily seat cartridges where the full diameter of the bullet extends much beyond the crimp grove. This will allow you to use a much wider range of bullet shapes, and diameters.

If interested, call John (great guy) at Freedom Arms 307-883-2468, explain the problem and ask him if chamfering the abrupt chamber/throat shoulder will work for you.

[bradshaw]

A felt tip marker should be in the coffee can with pens and pencils. Make dummy rounds with intended bullet and chamber. Paul mentions encountering an abrupt leade between chamber and throat. While he notes interference in attempting to chamber factory ammo, an abrupt leade presents another complication as it grabs the bullet and generally destroys accuracy. Any variety of abrupt leade between throat and rifling destroys accuracy, be arm rifle or handgun.

As with any other medical procedure, research thoroughly before you act.
David Bradshaw

[paul105]

David,

That makes sense. Another benefit when shooting lead bullets is that you can actually shoot bullets the same diameter as the throats and don't get lead buildup in the leade.

If memory serves, the abrupt leade wasn't all that uncommon in some of the early guns. John (FA gunsmith) offered the solution as soon as I mentioned the problem.

This particular gun (a 6" Field Grade) has always been very accurate with about any ammo, and pretty spectacular with loads it likes. I've posted this picture before -- the 25 yd group (center of target) has been verified several times and it tracks out to 100 yds -- the farthest I've shot it on paper. This was after the leade's were chamferred




I've gotten to the point where I don't tolerate recoil well at all anymore (also got tired of changing primer feeds on the Dillon), so this gun mostly operates with the .45 Colt aux cyl. It hits the same POI at 25 yards with the RCBS 270 SAA over 7.5gr HP38 (crimped over the front drive band) and the Lee 320gr FNGC DC seated to the top crimp grove w/22.5gr H110. Need to verify POIs further out, but just haven't got to it. Haven't chronoed in this gun, but based on others, would expect the 270SAA (actually about 280gr)to run right at 900 fps and the 320 Lee at 1,250 fps.

Paul

[bradshaw]

Paul... thank you for important information. Sounds like "John" at FA knows the dope. I was unaware of the abrupt leade problem between chamber and exit hole (throat) in some Model 83's. I began to appreciate the importance of a smooth transition between chamber and rifling----leade----years ago in the "there's no such thing as a good, cheap education" school of marksmanship. The Shilen bench rest boys and Bench Rest Hall of Famer Jim Stekl made me know in no uncertain terms the importance of a smooth leade in rifles; that without a smooth low angle leade the best barrel is dead.

As I am not a velocity-for-velocity's-sake shooter, I almost never shoot a .454 Casull full on. On of these days I'll experiment with .45 Colt loads seated deep in .454 brass----providing they chamber. In the mean time, I'm not particularly low on .45 Colt brass, and my M83 4-3/4" gets most use with Colt and ACP cylinders. Expect Lee will soon post a few photos of performance with the ACP cylinder at 50 and 100 yards. According to the Jay Tee Revolv-a-Gauge, chamber-to-bore runout (offset) measures .007-inch, yet it groups under 4-inches at 100 yards with my tattered eyes.

The .45 ACP requires a sharp shoulder at the front of the chamber, of course, to headspace the case. Yet accuracy tends to be excellent in convertible Rugers and the Freedom Arms M83. This arrangement ceases to work when space is provided to open a roll crimp, as is necessary to a rimmed case and higher recoil.

Keep up the excellent shooting,
David Bradshaw

[cmh]

Groo and Mr. Bradshaw, thanks for the explanations

[seancass]

12lbs of powder later, I'm ready to do some reloading!

Thanks for the replies so far guys!

paul, That's a really great idea. Looks like it really worked for your gun, that's some really great shooting!

cmh, glad you got your answer, I don't have enough experience with 454's to be of any help!

bradshaw, thanks for continuing to add your considerable insight to this thread!

I'm thinking about loading some 250gr JHP or JSP with 10-12 gr of Unique. Have any of you guys tried a similar load? I know a girl who really wants to go shooting soon, and while she's an experience shooter, I'm not sure she'd enjoy full power 454 loads! FA's website says 12gr is the start for a 260grFA bullet, good for 1200fps. For being a starting load, that's not really a pip-squeak! Another site lists 12.5gr of Unique under a 300gr JHP for 1086fps. That could be a nice little load too! FA lists 10-14gr Unique for their hardcore bullet.

Several on this site have listed W231 for light loads. I haven't found any in stores for a while. And I've seen red/green/blue dot on the shelves, but i can't actually tell which one i need! Seems they are very versitile powders, I'm just not familure with them yet. As soon asi find some Trail Boss, I'll buy a big batch of it!

Meanwhile, I'll also start working up H110 loads, starting from the bottom. This thread has me expecting best accuracy at top loads, but it's probably wise to start at the bottom and work up!

[cmh]

After doing some more reading and hearing from some of you gentlemen on here I think I may end up giving the casull another try eventually.......... prolly in a BFR. My good friend is doing alot with his 460 XVR so.......... its hard telling what I might get into exactly Thanks

[seancass]

Well, i did some shooting last night!

I made a load of 12.5gr Unique, 300gr XTP, seated out to second groove, cci 450's. I was hoping this would be a real soft shooter for my gf to try out the 454. Unfortunately, this felt in the relm of 45C+P and although she's an experienced shooter, she wasn't in the mood for 454 last night! The load did show promise for good accuracy and could make a good plinking load.

Next up was a few rounds of H110 under the 360gr TrueShot GC cast bullets. I started at the bottom of the load data and worked half way to full power. As some predicted groups shrunk as powder charges climbed. Cases slid easily out of chambers. 23gr of H110 showed real promise, I think it'll get more research. The targer below, left to right, is 22gr and 23gr H110 at the standard 7 yards. The third group, next to the star, is the gf's group with my Single Six. Yeah, she can shoot! For my group on the right, it's very good for verticle, less so on the horizontal, I'd say that's just my sight alignment. I think this load has a lot of potential.

I'm going to continue working up, if groups stay the same or increase, I'll continue working around 23gr, if they continue to shrink, I'll increase the distance and see how I'm really doing!



Thanks again guys!

[seancass]

Did a little reloading last night:

360gr True shot, 24.5 gr H110 for 30 rounds and 10 rounds of 9 grains of trailboss under 250gr RNFP.

[groo]

Groo here
As a hint try a full to the bottom of the boolet of TR with a heavy crimp and mag primers..
See how that shoots ,we use this for "light" loads in the mags.